Emotional Abuse - can we talk abou t it and what it entails?

[Janos]

If we already have a thread on this then I apologise for bringing it all up again. Perhaps someone can let me know and if so I'll let the thread die quietly!

I just thought it would be helpful to talk about it, and what constitutes it so people who are in an emotionally abusive relationship could recognise what is going on as it can be so insidious and nasty, and more difficult to identify.

This is not for one moment to denigrate or draw attention away from physical or sexual abuse btw.

I agree gothicmama, I certainly don't want that happening. I look at him and wonder realistically, can he either change, or tone things down enough that we can live together. I don't know the answer to that. I do love him, but I also (sounds daft) love and respect myself and want what's best for me. I don't know if it's him; I want it to be.

I also wonder how long it would take for him to start with the subtle control again. What do you do when they close the curtains when its still a bit light outside and you were enjoying the evening light illuminating the room? Get up and open them again? Ignore it? Mention it and get rebuffed kindly but firmly? That's just one of the many mad little things I am glad not to be experiencing right now. My curtains - I decide

I feel sometimes that if I were a stronger person, if I was more confident and self assured, no-one including him would treat me with anything less than polite respect. I'm angry at myself for letting myself be bullied by him, and wondering - is it enough to be strong minded? Can you set such firm boundaries that they don't squash you emotionally? It's as though, I was bullied at school, and at college, and now in relationships... I wonder if I can ever break free of this cycle, and what it would take to be strong, unbulliable.

cheerfulvicky, boundaries aren't about being unbulliable. They're about how to protect yourself when you are being bullied. You can't control how other people choose to behave, and so (unless you turn into a hermit) you're always going to be in a position where someone may attempt to abuse or otherwise bully you. But a boundary of "I won't allow myself to be bullied so if it starts then I will walk away and, if necessary, call the police" gives you a plan for getting away from the bullying once it becomes apparent.

The thing about abusers is that their abuse is fundamentally all about them and their brokenness. A lot of the time it's blatant projection, where they're accusing you of things they secretly believe about themselves. Once you realise that, their words have a lot less power.

I wish I'd known about MN when I first met p, because maybe then I would have realised how badly he was treating me. Looking back I just can't understand why I didn't walk away,ecept I got pregnant soon after meeting him, when he was just so lovely.

But whilst pregnant and just after the birth he would keep me up for hours calling me names in the middle of the night. I was selfish if I didn't want to travel 1hour to his late at nighb when pregnant.

He has struggled with a drug problem, and run up huge huge debts in loans, overdrafts,credit cards,all in my name. He bullies me into giving him money, refusing to let me go to bed or leave me alone til he gets his way. Yet if I get so upset and angry I scream how we have no money and cannot pay the bills,he says i am mentally ill.

I am selfish and have damaged the relationship by sleeping separately when he refused to turn off the tv at night and I couldn't sleep with that and his snoring, and getting up to the baby.

Once baby was born he no longer saw me as a sexual person, and only wanted sex when he had taken drugs - then would want to do it for hours, and I was selfish if I didn't want to. He also could only do it if watching porn over my shoulder, til I felt I could be anyone.

He has always refused to leave.

Now he comes into my room and gets into the bed in the mornings - I say OK if to interact with kids - he falls asleep in my bed - I ask him to go,he won't - tells me I am unreasonable, I am the one upsetting kids by asking him to go.

Although he pays me compliments often,also i am not as useful as him as I have no professional qualification. He is more important as he will always be able to make more money than me. I am disorganised and incompetent.

He can go out anytime without letting me know, turning off his phone. If he is in, I must keep him company,or he threatens to go out (implicit that he will spend yet more money we haven't got)

He sleeps in every day, I am up through the night with baby, and up by 7am every single day.

The list goes on and on. Some friends in rl know different bits, I feel too ashamed to tell people the whole story.

He's kind of agreed tomove out, but still says he will stay a few nights. I feel so trapped, frustrated, stuck. But I do know I don't deserve this.

Sorry for such long post, sorry so many others are putting up with awful situations, glad others have met men who treat them with respect

Please tell me whether you think this is an example of EA

My dh ( I don't want to say too much or belittle him but this one thing gets me down and I think is odd) if we have a disagreement will accuse me of being angry.

I am quite a calm person and am not usually angry ( at that point) but he will repeatedly accuse me of being angry or shouting ...until I am!

He on the other hand IS an angry and grumpy person much of the time.

?? Anyone??

OH MY GOSH!!! thank god you did get rid of that one..........Where do these men come from????!!! Question.. do their mothers know how horrible they are??

I am glad you shared,onepieceofcreamegg

Oh My God, what you poor people are experiencing is just beyond belief. If children are involved they will learn this is normal behaviour. So, sons will copy their dads and treat their own partners this way and daughters will think this behaviour is women's lot. You have to break the cycle!How if you have had your self confidence eroded? Gaining strength through this forum is a start isn't it? Knowing you're not alone.FWIW men who treat women this way probably aren't happy either but their egos get them through. Egos can be boosted by putting others down. Start by detaching yourself and keep a record, writing or emailing everything you don't like as in a diary. Then you can look for and anticipate the triggers. Try changing your responses to the triggers. Suggestions (these have all been successful btw)(choose depending on your own situation): 1. Emergency response when all else fails(pretend to) hyperventilate every time he's mean so that he associates a physical reaction in you with what he does and you need to count up how many times it happens. Say his behaviour is not doing your health any good, it may alarm him enough for him to stop. 2.Less drastically, why not agree with him, tell him he's right, etc to boost his ego (of course it's just a tactic) to appeal to the knight in shining armour in him, it will deflect any criticism made against you. In arguments say, 'I understand what you're saying, I'm sorry you feel that way, you really must have had a hard day at work' etc. 3. Men have a bad reaction to women shouting, so don't. Communicate by writing things down,(emailing works) or getting quieter instead of louder, using a different tone of voice etc.4. Suggest a sit down meeting where you spell it out where you're unhappy, invite him to do the same and reach a compromise.Tell him what he does well and ask him to do the same for you. 5. Create a world where you shut him out as if he's not there, do not give eye contact, only ever talk to him politely as if he's a stranger. Extreme? May be, but remember many women are killed by their partners at home everyday, you must STAY SAFE.

kidowner, my ex did make me hyperventilate and he'd say "That's right, pretend to have a panic attack again" so it doesnt always work I'm afraid.
I had so many different ways of responding to him, depending on how I was feeling. Going very cold and lowering my voice was often successful as I think it unnerved him, being so far away from the traditional "hysterical" female response he was trying to provoke.

These men are TWISTED. They know perfectly well that what they are doing is wrong, but they actually feel it is their right to treat you this way.

In cases where these men are narcissists their behaviour is often categorized as
"Come closer...so I can slap you" Very true, in my experience.

Never realised so many people going through the same stuff as me. My husband a great person most of the time. But now and again goes into one and picks arguments over the slightest things. He made me clean the house until 2.30am on Friday because i hadnt sorted out the shoe cupboard!! He was like a man possessed pulling out stuff from all the cupboards etc. It was awful. He was ranting in front of our son who has special needs so he was getting upset. Didnt want to shout back so just did as he asked. I feel such a weak person (normaly i am a strong person). I tell my best friend and she just says that is not normal behaviour and i should leave. We are in so much debt at the moment that i feel i have to stay to help sort it out as we have spent too much money on credit cards etc. He has his good side, he is a really hard worker and will help anyone - except me. He drinks heavily and thats normally when he kicks off. he tells me that he thinks i have mental problems!!! He says he is sorry after and that he will get help with his drinking but never does. I always say that the next time he does it I will leave but i never do. Will not be able to manage moneywise if i leave. When he is nice he is lovely, but the other side to him makes me want to kill him. I am not a violent person, but i really could kill him when he is like it. Hes always telling me how useless and lazy I am (i work part time, help him run his business and have a child with special needs that i do everything for!!) I feel better already just doing this and knowing that all you are haviung the same troubles.

I've been considering counselling although I'm now divorced from emotionally abusive ex, because I'm still coping with the fallout. And this thread, as others have said, is such an eye-opener and it's so helpful to share experiences. EA unfortunately can continue even if you're not with the person anymore. Ex has to be in my life because of our DD of 9 and it's a constant reminder of how he treated me when we were together. It makes me doubt myself and is affecting my current relationship with a lovely man who is kind, loving and thinks the world of me.

Yesterday, when I dared ask ex about some childcare arrangements when he has DD, he switched into bullying mode - being abusive, calling me mad and threatening me. I came off the phone shaking and just wish I didn't have to deal with him. I know I'm not mad but I feel so damaged by his treatment of me that I wonder if I'll ever be able to have a normal relationship. It's as if I don't trust my own judgement or feelings anymore. Can anyone relate to that? And ex-H hasn't been the only EA type I've been with either - why do we end up with these men?

And just read your post Mrsblanc - yes, that's a typical example of EA, my ex did/does it all the time. He'd twist the conversation, be downright cruel and even if I remained calm would acuse me of out of control behaviour. You just have to try and stick to your guns and not lose it with them. Because that's what they want - as vengeful says, these men are twisted and are trying to provoke you in order to feel superior. I find now the best way to communicate with him is non-verbally because then he can't manipulate me.

psycho101 thanks

sparky I ended up with 2 of these type of men (not at the same time lol)

In my case I already had desperately low self esteem and was very vulnerable (and probably depressed tbh). This was due in part to my abusive childhood, but this isn't the case for all of us.

I now do have a "normal" relationship. Dh and I have our minor squabbles etc but on a completely even footing.

I feel for you that you still have to tolerated his wankiness bad behaviour for the good of your dd. Wishing you strength.

mrsblanc - p always tells me I am shouting if I disagree with him. When I refute this he tells me I'm not aware that I am

Sparkyoldbint - i understand what you are saying, i am in a similar position.I booted my disgusting bully out over a year ago, yet in some ways, hes still here .
I find myself constantly second guessing myself and doubting my own judgement and i still feel traumatized by what ive endured. I constantly ask freinds if im being unreasonable or what their opinion is on such and such a thing.

Some days i honesly wonder who i am as i seem to have lost my identity.I wonder if i will ever be the same again and feel that i am somehow forever changed.

I am having counselling and finding it extremeley helpfull . Sadly my dd has adopted many of bullys tactics and constantly trys to dominate me and also emotionally abuses me.I am now trying to rebuild my self condidence and its very difficult.

I always thought that once id kicked him out, it would be the end , i now realise that its just the beginning of a long and painful journey back to normality.

My ex bully does not miss an opportunity to abuse me if i speak to him about the dcs. My counseller pointed out that in fact i dont have to have contact with him and ponders whether my doing so is actually some sort of self harm, as i know exactly what he will say yet still expose myself to it.
Ive wondered that myself occasionally. Anyway, am waffling, i honestly hope things get better for you soon.

Sparkyoldbint, can relate to your feelings when dealing with him , even hearing his car engine makes my heart pound. I too have met a normal loveley man and still feel guarded and unsure.

Often he will make some quite normal supportive remark or gesture and i find myself struggling not to cry, as it makes it so clear how badly ex treated me. I really would suggest counselling , if you get the right person it really does help.

I am now greiving the life i should have had, the years i have wasted, and years of pent up rage at having been abused.

Through counselling i know how i ended up with him, i was vulnerable and lacked boundarys and couldnt stand up for myself, never have been able to, i had a very difficult childhood and i guess it stems from that and perhaps counseller is right about the self harm thing.
I think i have a unconscious need to punish myself and constant exposure to him does exactly that.
I will do anything i can to avoid being in that position ever again.

"So, sons will copy their dads and treat their own partners this way and daughters will think this behaviour is women's lot. You have to break the cycle!How if you have had your self confidence eroded? Gaining strength through this forum is a start isn't it?"

Absolutely. I'm just worried that you'll all start giving each other advice that support each other to stay in these relationships. Like suggesting Relate to each other, when it's simply not appropriate and could end up making things a lot worse.

I know it's scary and hard to think about, but leaving/making him leave is the only healthy option. Supporting each other to start the process of separating is good, supporting each other to try and "fix" abusers and stay in the abusive relationship is not.

I mention the effects on your children because I assume that being loving mothers you will be able to mobilise some courage on their behalf, even if standing up for yourself seems impossible.

No, you aren't waffling hopeful and your story resonates so much with me. I too often look at myself and wonder who I really am - I come across as assertive at work and with friends/family but when it comes to men I'm a mess. I question everything I do, even if it's only sending a one-line text. I'm glad the counselling is helping you and I know it's the only way I'm going to really move forward.

I know when all this is really affecting me as I have a recurring dream which includes all my emotionally abusive exes causing me grief! I've not once dreamt about my current (and hopefully lifetime) partner! All the best to you and hoping that your demons will finally be laid to rest.

dizietsma, I have read several times on this type of thread that Relate is definitely not appropriate (However, I am not disputing what you say, in that some posters may not realise this and unwisely recommend it as an option)

I had relationship counselling (not through Relate but similar). It was very very damaging. Like others have experienced, it is not for couples where one party (often the male) is emotionally abusive and highly manipulative. On the whole this type of counsellor is not experienced/qualified to deal with these extreme and complex cases.

What often happens is the man manipulates the counsellor into seeing things from his point of view. The woman is then potentially cast in the role of pathetic, weak, complaining person, so once again she is right where the man wants her.

It is not relationship counselling that is needed of course. Imo men like this rarely change. Often the woman needs specialised counselling/psychological therapy to address the emotional damage that has been done. The man needs to STOP the abuse (but usually makes the decision not to)

Well meaning family/friends may see a problem and recommend Relate, because possibly it has helped them with their more "traditional" marital problems (iykwim). If the woman (wisely) chooses not to access Relate then she is seen by the man (or others) as sabotaging the relationship. Once again she is seen as having the "problem"

It makes me very

hopefull, thats a very interesting point about self-harm. I dont any more but Ex said that he had to "cope" with me banging my head ie that was ME abusing HIM when it was me responding to the trauma of his appalling behaviour.

They cant cope with the idea of anyone's needs coming be.ore theirs-
Thats the way they think - our distress wouldnt make them stop or be sorry, instead its an inconvenience/irritation/weakness/sign they've won/something to be sneered at.

"Twisted" indeed.

Right ladies! We're all here for each other whatever the outcomes!

Extricating oneself from abusive relationships takes extreme strength and if you have enough of the good times, the darker times can be wished away..until the next dollop of abuse.

Women are almost inherently able to see the good side in people, even in extremely abusive relationships, as most who have posted these messages are. I mean, being made to clean until 2.30am yet he's a nice chap...COME ON! I bet Fritzl had a nice side!

Forget yourselves for a moment, if you have a boy and he's witnessing this abuse, you will be creating the next bully for the next generation. How does that feel? If you can't stomach that then you have to get out fast. If you have a dd, you will damage her too. You absolutely have no choice but to make a stand.

If every single abused woman took a stand, wrote down what they've got to put up with, left copies with the police, friends, family then it will be eradicated as it's like a disease. Get yourselves immunised by saying enough's enough. It should not be a private, behind closed doors shame. It only perpetuates because of shame. No more!

You are all wonderful women and kind hearted to boot. If you had higher expectations/standards you would not let this happen to you. Please take care and GOOD LUCK

Madamovary, i agree with what you say about standard marriage counselling. I once went by myself , by this time the emotional abuse had escalated and i was being sexually abused and manipulated too.

I explained in detail what was going on,, i was confused as to whether i was actually being abused or not, as obviously ex was constantly telling me how i was mad ect.When i came to explaining how i was literally having to fight ex off me sexually and how it made me feel, counseller casually commented that " some men are like that,have you been to the docters to rule out any medical condiotion that may be affecting your libido "????

In fact i didnt want sex with him as he would regularly assault me by doing things to me sexually that i did not like -to humiliate me and dominate me. If i ever dared to object he would explode with rage and scream how i was crap in bed and i need to go to the docters. Many times i had to physicly fight him off.

She basicly backed up what he had been saying , that i was the one with the problem. She also attempted to justify his behaviour by making excuses and looking at his parents marriage and basicly suggesting ways i could back down to humour him further , sexually, emotionally and financially.

I left in tears more convinced than ever that i was the problem.

Thank god he wasnt there to listen to it.

kidowner those are are admirable sentiments but the reality is not so easy, sadly. It isnt just because of shame, but sheer lack of inability to even think clearly because of the mess these EA partners make.
It takes time and many, many stages before many women can even come to terms with the fact they are being abused, let alone what they want to do about it.

hopefull that is shocking and so sad.
Ex never abused me sexually in a physical sense, he was the more the type who would withhold sex/affection in order to control me. Just as damaging tho.

You know what Ex said when he was waxing lyrical about OW. He said that he treated her very well (compared to past crap relationships yes he prob did)
Then he said "I dont hit her" as if this was a plus.

"It is not relationship counselling that is needed of course. Imo men like this rarely change. Often the woman needs specialised counselling/psychological therapy to address the emotional damage that has been done. The man needs to STOP the abuse (but usually makes the decision not to)"

Exactly my point.

In some cultures there is no such thing as rape in marriage and women are not allowed to say no to sex at all.

Some are only allowed out if they have their husband's permission and beaten regularly by their husbands and mils.

The same cultures think it's ok for pre pubescent girls to be married off even if they're 9 or 10 yrs old (or younger). The woman's point of view is nothing.

There will never be any stand made by any of this because the women think it's normal and are too downtrodden in any case.

As long as you know you do have a choice you can do something about it. If this is your culture you may wish to keep it that way. For all the rest, please gain strength from those who have 'got away' because it could be you one day.

"If this is your culture you may wish to keep it that way."

Em... even if it is "your culture", you shouldn't put up with it.