Feel desperately let down by Relate counsellor who makes me feel like I am going mad for thinking DP shows warning signs of abusiveness...

[cheerfulvicky]

Sorry, just need to vent. I know Relate are supposed to be impartial and not take sides, but I feel so upset about tonight's session and can't face ever going back. And I think my relationship is over.

The counsellor
laughed at me and implied I was oversensitive for feeling flattened by DPs quietly controlling behaviour. Said I should 'rebel' and just do what I wanted while staying in the relationship. I don't want to rebel because I want an equal partnership, not one where my partners insecurity and issues with control leave me feeling like my every move is scrutinized, I am subtly discouraged from doing anything that would make me likely to become more confident and therefore leave him.

I was sobbing as I left as I left utterly distraught at not being taken seriously. I do feel frightened of my partner sometimes, he has never hit me but there is huge imbalance in our relationship and I feel like she doesn't understand HOW FUCKING HARD it is to break the cycle. She has no concept of how broken down you can get, how belittled and small and silly you can feel so that you CAN'T rebel, can't bloody do anything because you are a shadow of your former self. I feel like buying her a copy of Lundy Bancroft's book and sending it to her, but I do not feel like going back there. I don't think I can do anything except leave him, and that's what I'm going to do.

I badly wanted support but Relate isn't helping, its made things worse and he now seems to think his behaviour isn't a problem at all , that we are 'miscomunicating' or it's all in my head. Am so upset right now, I just had to get this out. My mum was babysitting and when I was still crying when we got home, she saw how bad I was. She was great, said I am not going mad, the counsellor hasn't seen the real situation in a few sessions and not to lose heart, this stuff is happening, I'm not imagining it. She told me to go and read the websites about passive agressive behaviour to reassure myself I'm not mad, it's subtle but real.

Please could you give me some support and be gentle, because I'm very low tonight and I haven't felt this upset in years. If it wasn't for my son I think I'd be in a much worse, more self destructive place. I feel so betrayed by the counsellor. I understand how it has to be but, God, it hurts. I feel so alone.

I don't think you're weak but I do think there's a problem with your list - and this is because I was once where you are now. The problem is you are assuming that somehow he doesn't know what he's doing and once it's pointed out then he will change.

Unfortunately abusive men will not change because they are getting payoff for their behaviour - it works for them. I think you know this really when you spotted that he liked you being distressed!

Quite honestly I think these men all read from the same script - my ex told me great long stories about how suicidal he was and had been when I challenged his behaviour towards me - he is trying to suck you in because you are a nice person and wouldn't treat anyone the way he treats you.

Really really you need to put distance between the two of you even if it's only to think for a while. While he's engaging you in these discussions you are still playing a 'mummy' role and letting him off the hook - after all why should you have to come up with how he can improve his behaviour - please stay strong.

its a good list but all initiated by you and my guess is you'll have to keep on top of him forever ,like a child
Do you want to be responsible for him forever while he either reluctantly goes along with your plans or pretends to but makes life difficult for you?
Let me ask you,is he honest and truthful cos if not i don't think you'll be able to "police" this in any way

Thanks Kate, some good points there. I will have a think about what you've said. x

morningsun, yes he is honest, he's never been the type to lie. He just wants a good relationship without the effort of putting any work in, he is very lazy in everything he does. Sometimes once he gets started with something he can continue it without constant kicks up the backside, sometimes not.

Perhaps it would be best if you move out and attend the Freedom programme while you decide what to do? You can leave the door open for now, and keep your list - it's important to see what kind of a relationship you want, and you may want to amend it when you have had more focussed time to think. Good luck - you sound much clearer and calmer.

Yes, BoF, that was my intention. I think 12 weeks, while attending it, would be a good length of time to get my head sorted out. Of course it could take that long to find somewhere else to live, but at least if I started the program then by the end if I realised he's a tosser who will never change, I will have somewhere to go. Haha.

I do feel calmer and happier

Hi Cv - I have read several of your threads so hope it's ok to butt in here.

Fantastic list - hooray to you! I think you are right to spell out very clearly and specifically exactly what you need him to change so there is no wriggle room for him. Also it sounds as though for your own peace of mind you need to give him one last chance.

The only thing I wanted to say though is please be honest with yourself if he doesn't come up with the goods. Don't go back to a half fulfilled list and empty promises. Let's say he agrees to a joint account but doesn't pull his weight with the housework? r he takes you out to drive but makes snide comments about your gear changing, would you stick to your guns and leave?

Don't let him get away with it. Carry the list everywhere, remind him of it all the time, frame it if necessary and make sure plan B of moving away is a real option if he's not up to it. Good luck - you sound like a toughie to me

i like to do lsits i really do...but not sure if this is going to work...tho it certainly defines for you what you want in a relationship...

and thinking in performance management terms here -- which of those on the list are actually measurable - some are eg joint bank account but maybe a time limit /time frame needs to be put on it?

and it does not say who will be the one to go to bank and do it. eg get the forms.

the others are desirable but how will you measure success / failure?

in management speak, you need SMART objectives - Specific, Measurable, Attainable, Relevant and Timebound

given that list i imagine some might go ugh.... or yeh sure i will support you in driving but it doesnt define how and what this really means....

what he thinks is "support" you might not - for years my ex told me he he was "helping" and "supporting" me by telling me i was "overweight" and "need to go the gymn". "but i am helping you by saying this! " he would say when i would say look - i dont need you to constantly tell me i am overweight, unless you are actually going to say "look on wednesday i will have the kids in the evening why dont you go to the swimming pool?" now that never happened...

(actually i had gone from a size 12 to size 14 having kids...hardly obese...now lost weight to 10-12 during the traumatic period of leaving him and since i left him, ha!!

Hi Dittany
I see what you are saying, I am basically doing all the running to fix what is actually his problem. I think I feel I have never told him exactly what I have the biggest problems with, so he's been quite confused. He wants to be given a task or a problem, bloke style, to get his teeth into and so he can look at it and know if it's workable or not.

If I had to look at him as a prospective boyfriend, but magically knowing what I know about him now, I'd say he's probably quite selfish and not very good at sharing. In his previous long term relationship (14 years) they had separate jobs/finances, separate trolleys in the supermarket (!), but he paid the household bills and the mortgage, the house was his. I don't see why he could ever see the house as mine if it was never hers, and she lived here for 14 years. Even though we have a child together. Before that he was married (2 years) and he had to buy her out, so I think that burned him and he's not keen on sharing things anymore. I have no idea what an appropriate time frame for putting my name on the deeds would be, if our relationship ever felt stable enough that I wanted him to do that. (i.e, I'm not just going to leave him anyway and render the whole thing pointless.) I don't know how to work that one out... Any insights?

Slambang, cestlavielife: we talked yesterday about having specific ways in which he could contribute to each thing, so it was possible to see that it was actually happening. I think I could think up practical steps for all of the things on the list,although that might be something we should discuss together.

The joint account we already have set up but he hasn't yet had his salary re-directed there, he says he's hanging on until council tax benefit is sorted out, which will take another month I think. He also sees benefits and earned money as being different and doesn't like 'mixing' them. Quite weird I say.

The most powerful thing that's struck me reading all your responses is that I don't want to spend the rest of my life nagging at someone, I want them to step up and take responsibility without being asked. I think I may have to accept that may not happen in this relationship, if it continues. I'm not 100% sure, but I think drawing on past experience with him, that I would have to remind him about some things, unless they were frequent and routine. I don't know if you can instill a respectful and taking-the-initiative kind of nature into somebody if it wasn't there in the first place.
What good do you think the Freedom Program fro men might do? Does anyone have any experience of it?

I think if you have a child together and are in a relationship, you need to be on the deeds now.

Reading your last post though, in purely my own opinion, this really doesn't sound like a relationship with any legs. Where is the sharing, the joy?

If it was me, I would see a solicitor and just chalk it up to a bad choice...but I'm not you of course. I hope you can find some answers. Can you do a search for a fairly recent (last two weeks) thread by RealityIsMyOnlyValentine ? It's called Listen Up or something similar. I think it might give you some clarity. Take care x

great list. there is no reason why you shouldn't expect this treatment in a relationship.

BUT i think in order for this to work he must do what you ask WITHOUT you nagging. if you have to nag him, you turn into his parent, he the defiant child that you have to cajole and you will end up feeling resentful and angry.

ultimately he has to want to change, and if he doesn't, then he's making his decision really.

just please don't fall into the trap of policing him to make him measure up to your expectations.

BoF, do you really think so? I guess because we've only been together 1 1/2 years, and he's been paying off the mortgage for, well - most of my life time I'd feel a bit weird swanning into his life and having half of the house just like that. Perhaps it's just me.

warthog, wise words! I may have to print off your post and carry it with me, and it encapsulates everything I most struggle with about him in day to day life.

Oh, by the way; today my copy of The Verbally Abusive Relationship: How to Recognize it and How to Respond arrived! So I'll be doing some reading over the weekend

Vicky, I've been with my H for 15 years and we've lived in this house for over 10 years, our kids are 11 and 9, we've been married since 1996. My name isn't on the deeds, purely because in the first week of owning this property my name was already on another mortgage, the sale of that property completed a week after the completion of this house. We no longer have a mortgage as he has paid it off (through inheritance and a generous salary) and he doesn't think I'm entitled to half the proceeds of the house either. Your partner and my husband need to understand that the objective is to provide a home for the child/children, not to make a profit from the unfortunate ending of a relationship.

I think your list reflects what you want/need/deserve from a partner...I'm not sure that it's realistic unless you change the partner. Knowing how manipulative my H is, I wonder if your partner attempts (or pretends) to meet your demands, but fails, will he put the blame on you...it's your list, after all.

cheerful, I've read your list. It's great

But what strikes me, and you won't like this, is that you should leave anyway. Then issue the list If he can comply with the list then you return.

Haven't read the other posts since I'm afraid - must run.

"I think your list reflects what you want/need/deserve from a partner...I'm not sure that it's realistic unless you change the partner. Knowing how manipulative my H is, I wonder if your partner attempts (or pretends) to meet your demands, but fails, will he put the blame on you...it's your list, after all.".

Completely agree. I feel the danger of this list is that he'll agree to it now to stop you talking about leaving - but wriggle out of it and manipulate you so that you feel him wriggling out of it is acceptable. I mean - look how he behaved about the will thing - very manipulative. Other thing about the list - it's going to require a bit of a personality transplant for him to become a respectful partner - I doubt he can change so radically, particularly if he's not the one who is instigating the change.

I am sorry I need to say a bit more - I think you are so very brave, and my god I understand that desperate longing to save your family and be with the man you love, but without the anger, resentment , sadness
It is only now being with a NM who genuinely respects me and cares about me, and doesnt need to be told how to put me first or treat me with respect, in fact TBH I am struggling with having someone in my life who doesnt hold me responsible for everything - I dont believe these man can or really want or believe they need to change....my eyes have been opened by someone showing me that I do deserve to be treated well without explaining to him how or why he needs to do it
I think you are being too generous but I do unerstand why you need to try - it has taken me 10 years to get to where I am now and its not over yet!

I've made up my mind, the last few days have been hellish. He had a look at my list and didn't say much except it sounded quite angry, and would need to think about it, but he asked why on earth my name should be on the deeds, and why I felt the need to put about the loft room, and argh, the whole conversation was just crap. Oh and he said, if he can't even make it through a conversation without being rude (which he felt he had een, by his own admission) then there wasn't much hope for him, was there?

I'm going to see a property tomorrow, it's not in my town though and my XP says I should stay in the same town as him to make it 'easier for everyone'. I don't quite see who its making it easier for, and I've already promised he and his mum will see DS a lot.

Now having read him some of your lovely posts aloud to try and show that I have support, I'm not going mad, there is a problem here etc - he has said that I should print the thread so he can show it to his mum. Because she doesn't understand, he is 'very angry' with me (even after our chat together which was sad but I thought ended in some understanding) and his sister apparently is 'livid' with me. They haven't said these things to my face, I heard this through him. He and his mum stood in the street outside the house taking for hour half an hour yesterday, she wouldn't come in, and when I knocked on the window and waved with DS she smiled thinly and then turned away. I feel persecuted for my decision, it's very hard to remain strong, even though our relationship is in tatters and I know there is no way forwards. All we've done the last week is argue, it seems. The atmosphere is appalling, and yet he's telling me not to rush into taking a property far away and wait for one to come up locally. I just want to get out!

We've just spent two or three hours arguing and I feel shattered, and drained. I can't do this for much longer, I can't stand living with the constant tension, and I know his mum doesn't agree with my decision, but I feel so much anger coming from her, she's obviously never going to respect my choice. I end up feeling like a silly little girl who has to defend her actions.

Oh, wait! Now he's telling me NOT to print this thread out, saying there's no need to ask the people of MN after all . Apparently, if I have doubts about doing that, I shouldn't do it. Right.

I'm going to have to learn some meditation techniques or something to get through the next few weeks... Sweet jesus.
Help!

I have said that to him dittany. He asked why I didn't phone his sister, in that case? Or go around there? Just... words fail me. I can't ever win, he always has a comeback for everything I say.

Thanks for responding x

Cheerful - I've followed this thread without posting and just wanted to say, stay strong. You know deep down what will make you happy -just close your eyes and picture the perfect day. Use that as your aim, don't think about all the barriers to climb in order to get there just focus on the end goal and remember if you really want it you will get there. I speak from experience. All the rest (his family attitudes etc) is pap and it really will not matter in the end.

Thanks Pepa, I will do that I know it will be alright in the end, its just a long hard road to get there. But I will. I'm determined now.