Feel desperately let down by Relate counsellor who makes me feel like I am going mad for thinking DP shows warning signs of abusiveness...

[cheerfulvicky]

Sorry, just need to vent. I know Relate are supposed to be impartial and not take sides, but I feel so upset about tonight's session and can't face ever going back. And I think my relationship is over.

The counsellor
laughed at me and implied I was oversensitive for feeling flattened by DPs quietly controlling behaviour. Said I should 'rebel' and just do what I wanted while staying in the relationship. I don't want to rebel because I want an equal partnership, not one where my partners insecurity and issues with control leave me feeling like my every move is scrutinized, I am subtly discouraged from doing anything that would make me likely to become more confident and therefore leave him.

I was sobbing as I left as I left utterly distraught at not being taken seriously. I do feel frightened of my partner sometimes, he has never hit me but there is huge imbalance in our relationship and I feel like she doesn't understand HOW FUCKING HARD it is to break the cycle. She has no concept of how broken down you can get, how belittled and small and silly you can feel so that you CAN'T rebel, can't bloody do anything because you are a shadow of your former self. I feel like buying her a copy of Lundy Bancroft's book and sending it to her, but I do not feel like going back there. I don't think I can do anything except leave him, and that's what I'm going to do.

I badly wanted support but Relate isn't helping, its made things worse and he now seems to think his behaviour isn't a problem at all , that we are 'miscomunicating' or it's all in my head. Am so upset right now, I just had to get this out. My mum was babysitting and when I was still crying when we got home, she saw how bad I was. She was great, said I am not going mad, the counsellor hasn't seen the real situation in a few sessions and not to lose heart, this stuff is happening, I'm not imagining it. She told me to go and read the websites about passive agressive behaviour to reassure myself I'm not mad, it's subtle but real.

Please could you give me some support and be gentle, because I'm very low tonight and I haven't felt this upset in years. If it wasn't for my son I think I'd be in a much worse, more self destructive place. I feel so betrayed by the counsellor. I understand how it has to be but, God, it hurts. I feel so alone.

cheerfulvicky, have just seen this thread now.

I'm so sorry that you had this horrible experience. My blood ran cold just reading about it. I've had similar issues in my relationship, and I know that if a counsellor had said something like this to me I would have been distraught.

It is classic behaviour for an abusive/controlling person to tell their partner that they are mad/overemotional/depressed/unreasonable, and I am so shocked that the counsellor colluded in this.

I have read your posts on here, and your partner's behaviour is controlling beyond a shadow of a doubt. I remember something you posted about how it was hard to know when a relationship had crossed the line from acceptable to unacceptable. This rang very true for me. It sounds like you have started to think that things have become unacceptable. (Your partner's reaction to the counsellor's assessment is certainly not very reassuring.)

If this is the case, then you should definitely enlist your mum's help and move out for a bit. This will give you some space to think about things, and also give you a sense of what coping with your DS on your own would be like.

Thinking of you, for what it's worth I think you are being incredibly strong.

xx

I told DP tonight that our relationship is over. He is very upset but hasn't tried to persuade me otherwise, for which I'm thankful. I said I never wanted another night like last night, that I couldn't take it. He said he felt the same. He's really sad though, I feel awful for hurting him and very scared about the future. But weirdly I know it will be okay in time and I will feel better one day - even though I feel like shit now.

I know it has to be this way. And it has to be now, while I have the energy and motivation. Or I will slip back into feeling drained and unable to do anything about it all. And I don't know if or when I would work up the courage to go it alone.

Feel so sad for DS though I haven't cried though DP has quite a bit, but when I think of DS's little face, not understanding, it's heartbreaking. I hope he will understand one day.

So sorry to read this cheerfulvicky.

I really do understand what you're going through. I wemt through those emotions too. It's so hard isn't it?

My thoughts are with you.

So sorry you are having to go through this, cheerfulvicky. I have no doubt that your DS will understand one day. Take care, and make sure you get lots of support from your mum.

cheerfulvicky, it's only three weeks since I had a similar conversation with my husband and told him the marriage is over. It's been a very tough three weeks and we have had many ok days and many very difficult conversations, mostly one-sided in which he tells me I have ruined his life and the problem is that I won't forgive or apologise and I need counselling. If you can arrange to live separately fairly soon, you will be spared the awkwardness of the situation I'm currently in.

Do you think your partner intends to continue with counselling, or has friends he can talk to? I ask because my H says there is no-one who needs to know and when he wants to talk about things he uses me to 'offload' - his word. That's another good reason to live separately if you can, as in the same house it's impossible to avoid the grief.

I feel bad about what I've done, but I'm 40 and my life isn't over, and I'm not sacrificing myself to keep him happy for the rest of his life. It's only since I've been using mumsnet that I've come to realise how controlling and manipulative he is.

Keep strong and true to yourself, no matter how upset he seems and how much you get blamed.

so sorry cheerfulvicky

it really sounds like you have been pushed into this position and it must be very painful

if you have really made your mind (and it sounds like the right decision), please do not let him manipulate you any further by turning the emotional screws tighter and tighter as he finally realises just what he stands to lose

good luck, much best wishes to you and keep posting on here

cheerful, I'm glad you're feeling stronger today and motivated.

I think you are right to leave him and, in fact, for there to be even the ¨smallest¨ chance of him changing and you getting back together you would need to leave anyway.

An abuser has to understand what he has done...and take unconditional responsibility for it. (More Lundy!)

Hope you are OK and (FWIW) think as others do, that you should move sharpish.

Me again. Thanks for the lovely supportive posts, they really help.
I'm feeling quite low and sad this evening, feeling that I am making a mistake (though not saying anything about it), his mum came round today and it was awful seeing her so upset, I've never seen her like that. I feel like I'm hurting so many people and the guilt is tremendous - worse than I thought it would be. He said the one good things is he can finally sort out his will without so much confusion - that was what did me in. I was okay til then. He said he previously didn't want to leave his house to me in his will in case he died, I remarried and divorced, and my ex husband took half of the house, meaning that our DS would miss out. Now it's easier because he on;ly has to consider DS - but asked me if I would mind being a trustee for him until he was old enough. WTF?! He said he didn't mean to hurt me, but he seemed happier after he saw my face crumple, stronger. I sometimes think we are like those alternating weather house people, who take it in turns to be happy. One's up, the other is down.

I want to cry and crawl into his arms because he's the only thing I have, the only person in my life. But I won't. I'm staying strong and saying nothing. And mumonthenet, I know you are right. I would have to leave whatever. I'm just full of doubt. Was it really that bad, as bad as all that? The usual, blah blah. Please help me to be strong, ladies

cheerfulvicky, have a hug, girlie

he is playing your emotions like a violin

talking about wills ?? oh, come on, man get a grip

of course you are full of doubt, he is not a monster, he is just a man, you need to remember that

if he beat you black 'n' blue every day, the decisions you are making would be easy

but life isn't black and white

however, we get only one life, and if he cannot make you happy, then you must end it

now stop listening to his snivelling and do what you feel is right for you, not your ds (cos he will be alright), but you

does it help to think[in your own mind] of it as a break rather than the end even tho it is the end iyswim?
its hard to move on becos there is bound to be some good that goes along with the bad.
Think of the worst exchanges between you to spur you on?
Have you got any support from a close friend or relative?
Wishing you strengthxx

Not read all this but fwiw went to one Relate session to try and hold things together with ex, he wouldn't come so was just me. Was told that reason he'd blown up at me and called me a C in front of our 3 year old was because he was threatened by my being in control blah blah, I should lighten up and 'let him see my vulnerable side'. Around this time I had to call police as he threw me out of bed and chucked furniture around. Turned out he was shagging the local barmaid. I've never had such stupid advice in my life.

You poor thing, he does sound like he wants to see you upset. Of course it's going to be hard, splitting up always is, but just keep with the "This too shall pass" and know that you are going to be a hundred times happier this time next year, you really will.

Haven't read all this thread either, but had a similarly useless experience with a Relate type counsellor as you. I was in an abusive relationship and as a last resort we tried couple's counselling.

I was so incensed with the counsellor because she allowed my ex to do most of the talking and seemed totally unsure as to what to do. She also seemed to be supportive towards him but challenged me whether I really wanted to commit to the relationship -yes I said, "if he stops beating and raping me" - she was completely stumped.

Hopeless. Agree that couple's counselling is not well suited to abusive situations.

I wish you all the best cheerfulvicky - it is very tough at first, but keep going and with time you will feel as if a weight has been lifted.

Poor cheerfulvicky, no wonder you are upset. What a horrible thing to say about the will - it doesn't sound like there is a lot of trust on his side, either before or after you decided to separate.

AnyFucker is spot on - you have to do what is right for you, and what will help you to have a happy life. You are not responsible for him, and you're certainly not responsible for his mum. You're responsible for you and your DS, and it sounds like this is the right decision for both of you.

Could you go and stay with your mum for a few days?

Thinking of you xxx

I'll never forgive the telephone counsellor I spoke to, after I left my abusive partner. I was starting to explain the situation and hadn't got to the end (although I was in tears) and he started saying "well, I feel sorry for him". I hadn't given him the whole picture yet but it really set me back.

But I persevered... and it was I think my third counsellor, Harry, who really did the trick. And he was NHS so didn't cost me a penny. Worth investigating with your GP? Either way, if you want a supportive counsellor, you deserve one. Keep going until you get one xxx

cheerful, as the others say:

You are not responsible for your dp or his mother. Not for their sadness. Not for their ACTIONS either. You have your own sadness to worry about.

He never wrote a will in your favour in case you married again and then snuffed it and then your widower got half the house? What a load of drivel. He is STILL trying to bring you down. Nothing more or less than that.

"It's MY house not yours...see how I'm still in charge"

When are you leaving? What are the plans? I really think now you've told him it's over you need to carry through asap.

You have all my hugs and support.

have skimmed this only but wanted to reply.

i had a bad experience with my first relate counsellor - so i changed and the second one was much better.

i had someone advising me at the time along the same lines as lessonlearned is advising you now - i'm very glad i ignored them - just my 2c.

CV - you are strong and you can leave him and have a happy life with your son.

I saw Total chaos posted this link on the last page but I wanted to repost it because I know how the Freedom programme can help women who have been or are in abusive situations regain some self esteem and come to terms with what has happened to them. It also helps women to see what is dominating behaviour and what is the behaviour they have the right to expect from their partner.

Women's aid will also provide you with support and advice if you feel that you need it.

Vicky, goodluck, and as you've made your decision, try your best to find somewhere to stay asap - to avoid having to be around him any more than you have to. Check out the council for temp housing - they may be able to find you somewhere pretty quickly, especially as you have a child, then you'll at least have some breathing space.

Try not to anguish too much about the hurt he or his mother or anyone else feels. You are responsible for YOUR feelings and actions, and they are responsible for theirs. We all feel guilt when we end a relationship, but we have to look beyond that guilt, to the reasons why we made that decision, and try not to be influenced by the feelings of people not directly involved. God, I had relatives the other side of the planet phoning me when my exH and I split, trying to persuade me to try again! It took a lot of courage and stubbornness on my part to resist - not to mention the lectures I got from my mother about 'duty' and 'honour' and how it would ruin my DD's life. Well, DD has come through it fine and is a lovely, lively, intelligent and extremely well balanced teenager. Your DS will be fine too. Really.

The way your soon to be ex seems to draw strength from your tears is scary - please please try to keep it together when he talks about wills etc. Don't give him your strength. And try to leave soon so you can avoid these situations. If you are scared and have doubts, think of the leaving as a chance to have a breather, to be on your own so that you can find out who YOU are and what YOU want. You can always negotiate a reconciliation in time, on your terms, or you may find that you are truly liberated and are once again that girl who bought a 20ft boat and lived her life to the full, and that his part in your life is as the father of your lovely DS, but no more than that.

Big hug Vicky, you really are worth it.

Hello. Thank you all for the supportive messages... I'm currently experiencing some doubts about my decision, I feel very sad about not being with DP and feel that I was a bit hasty in telling him it is completely over.

Now, before you all throw your heads into your hands and groan and frustration, I am NOT backing down and going all 'but he's nice really!' [simper simper] He can be an absolute bastard at times and I know this.

I have said that to him that I will write down for him the things that would need to happen in order for us to have a relationship, and we agreed that if he feels he cannot do those, then it will be over. I would HUGELY appreciate it if you could look at the following and tell me your thoughts. (In short, my intuition is that I want to move out but I want to keep open the chance that things could improve if and only if certain changes were made.) What do you all think of my list below? Sorry, it's long.

---

I will move out but on a temporary basis while we make the following changes in our relationship, and I get 'living alone' out of my system. I see this as essential in order for us to make progress and be happy as a couple.

If we are to stay together, I would like you to...

Attend weekend Freedom programme (somewhere in UK) for men after I have attended 12 week woman's program (in -blahtown-). Deal with insecurity issues relating to previous relationships alone with individual counsellor if necessary. I will do the same.

Put the house in both our names.

Give 50% (equal) input into childcare/housework on days off and evenings.

Completely shared income, 1 account. Each withdraw equal amounts of spending money (monthly by direct debit if necessary), to our own accounts. This money will be reproach-free. Joint spending needs joint agreement for large purchases.

Have respect for yourself (e.g on the ball with things like appearance, clean clothes & bedding, showering etc) and your possessions (e.g your vehicles, house, land etc). Help me to clear back garden or find an allotment.

Make a commitment to regularly initiate closeness and intimacy, so you can't 'forget' or give it a low priority. Communicate if you feel uncomfortable, worried or confused about something. Show your affection - I can't read your mind.

Respect my right to go out in the evenings or away on workshops, and have a social life without making me feel guilty for doing this. Refraining from being condescending if I fail or change direction in some of my attempts while I work out what is the right path for me. Don't make me have to beg for this time/feel indebted for taking it. I will allow you the same respect by looking after DS while you have time for yourself each week.

Take an equal role in organizing regular 'dates' where we can spend time as just a couple. For example, swimming, cinema, meals etc.

Give me the loft room to do whatever I want with, decor-wise (you sleep in front bedroom, DS in back room. Regular time spent cuddling in bed just the two of us etc)

Support me in learning to drive, and other projects, without taking over.

Support me in working/volunteering part time, without nagging at me to find work asap or criticizing my choice of job.

Think about how you appear to others and respect me as a person with my own opinions, choices and interests. Don't piss on my parade.

---

How does that sound? It's hard to make strong, confident conditions for a relationship if you're not feeling strong and confident - that's why I still want to move out and attend the freedom programme, to give myself a grace period in which to think: "Actually, he's a dangerous lunatic, I must stay away". But I do still love him and although I'm prepared to walk away from someone I love, I don't want to throw away something if it can be salvaged. I don't know if it can though.
We also talked about having time limits for the changes, so it's easy to see if they are not happening or if the person is not keeping their promises.

Be honest: am I kidding myself that change is even possible? Am I still being weak? At the moment my gut is telling me that the above is a good plan but moving out is crucial or this will be swept under the carpet and soon forgotten about.

Honestly that list says it all - if that is all the things he needs to change, then I honestly dont think he ever will
I wasted at least 3 years (out of 10) hoping and trying to get my STBXH to do the same, I wrote him lists and talked till I was blue in the face - I dont think these kind of men will ever change!
I do know how you feel - even after everything and him still traeting me like shit, I love him and feel like I didnt somehow do enough to save our marriage and family, I look at him sometimes, and feel an unbearable ache of sadness, that doesnt mean that he can be any kind of decent or loving H (and thats even with my lovely wonderful kind caring supportive NM in the background doing and saying everything right WITHOUT being needed to be told or asked, even with that I am finding it hard)

I've followed your situation for a bit macdoodle, I really feel for you. Your H sounds like a manipulative so and so, and I can understand why his behaviour would have you tearing your hair out. It's hard when you still love them, isn't it?

I don't know, I just don't know if he is capable of changing. I said as much to him, and explained that was why I have never made these demands before, because I think its unlikely he can make such massive changes. He is very willing though, and I don't know if he has been like this before. He reminds me of men after they have had an affair who will do whatever it takes to make it up to the woman, but sometimes them being super willing & humble isn't enough, and the affair is still the elephant in the room, impossible to move on from or recover from. That's how I see my situation now.

I will show him my list tonight or tomorrow, when I feel like it says everything I want to say. Any thoughts are welcome, revisions, telling me I'm crazy etc. I don't want to do this on my own, in a vacuum - in case I'm 'had'. I'm wary of that now...