another post affair thread....

[ratbunny]

dh left me for ow a couple of months ago. our marriage was not in a good state (he was incredibly selfish after ds was born, and I put up with a lot of crap, but got quite controlling in my fight for the 'family'), and tbh I was ready to leave him too, but wanted to give it a last try.

I was gutted, but sorted my head out quite quickly, and got to the point where I was moving on (albeit with blips of feeling down / angry). I honestly got to where I felt I could carry on without him.

But, now he has come to his senses. He says he regrets what he did, feels ashamed, realises how important we are, is terrified of losing us forever, and will do whatever I want to make up to me. He was crying as he told me this, and in the 14 years we have been together he has cried once. He has def finished with ow, and she has disappeared completely.

I am not sure he is what I want, and need time out, but I do know I want to be his friend. After 14 years together, I dont want to say never, but I so hurt, my trust in him is shattered, I dont know I will ever get over this. And I am not sure at the moment how much i want to try. I made plans for my future, and would still like to see some of those through.

He says he will get counselling - he does have major issues to do with his own childhood, which I think are the root of what happened. But I need him to change really - I need someone strong, responsible, reliable, which in the past couple of years (since ds) he hasnt been. He says he can change and wants to be a person that I need and want to have in my life. I dont know if people can change.

At the moment we are friends, for ds sake, adn because we still get on really well. I really care for him, and understand good people do bad things. But I want someone I am PROUD to introduce to my friends and family, and after what he put me through, I feel I would hang my head in shame.

But I keep looking at the post affair threads on here, so that tells me something. And I keep checking my phone to see if he has texted me, and I look forward to his seeing ds, so I can see him too. But how can I ensure I get what I NEED and WANT, and am not going to get hurt again?

So where do we go from here? Any advice would be welcome.

Sorry havent read all the post but get the general drift of things i hope.

By all means confront ow if you think it will make things better - but what i would say is just make it the once - have your say and then leave it - you will have a million things going on in your head and will wish you had said x y z.
If you dont confront her you may regret that too.

I have lots of info on ow and it makes me feel powerful in lots of ways - it is so easy to get information on someone and actually quite scary too. But now i dont feel the need to 'use' any of it.

I also understand the need to show her that you are not the 'evil' one - but believe me she will still think what she wants of you and could even twist what you say to justify things to herself. she will never think good of you (as you will never of her - and that is her loss more surely)?

You h by refusing to talk and making you feel bad if you do is still taking control of the situation.
There does come a time when you do have to 'accept' what he has done and move on but that does not mean you have to never mention it or tell him when you are feeling a bit low.

I think my h felt so much better when we did finally talk and he could start to make some sense of what he had done himself. In fact now he brings it up more than i do (although i do still think about it a lot) - when he does talk about it i often have to reassure him that i do still love him despite what he put me and the family through - it is a different love now (better in some ways too).

It really helps me to see him low too but i would not want it all the time.

Somehow you need to make him see that talking is part of the process for you and he needs to let you get past this otherwise there really is not future for you.

Good luck, and remember this is your decission to make and you should never feel guilty if it is not for you.

hw - thanks. I cant be bothered to confront ow. I actually feel sorry for her. she honestly thought her and h might have a future together - what, with somoeone who is emotionally crippled, and walked out on his young family. he obviously just lied to her about so much. and apparently she 'looked after' him - so she was in the same position as me, just not fed up with it. a 23 yr old 'looking after' a 33 yr old. that is sad really.

I do think I want it to work between us, but I have said before he would have to change a lot - basically stop being selfish and thoughtless and irresponsible. his current behaviour shows he hasnt actually BEGUN to change yet. is he capable of doing so?
and he said he was going to call roud yesterday evening, after ds's bedtime (7). well, texted me at 9 to tell me he was on his way (1 hour drive from where he was). reminded me of the 'old times' where he said he would be back, and never kept me informed, just let me wait.

as I said - I am 'open' to making it work. but is it worth me waiting around for someone who wont ever fulfill me? I DO love him, butI dont think that's enough, not with his selfish behaviour. in his opinion, this is all about HIM recovering, not US.

which is why I have set a deadline. maybe not a good idea, but when I reach that date at least I will know it's been 6 weeks since I nearly bailed out.

I think setting a deadline is a very good idea. Otherwise you will keep thinking "just one more week/month, things will get better" and there must come a time when you work out that things wont get any better and it is time to move on

I am willing to give this another couple of months.

It is just so hard isn't it - how long do you wait? I guess it is different for everyone, and there must come a point when you really can't go on. I suppose I have a mental deadline, but nothing is cast in stone and if you are making progress you can always change your mind.

As for confronting the OW, only do it if it will make YOU feel better, but don't expect it to change anything. It may do, but then again... In my case, it did make me feel better (probably because I did stay calm and didn't hurl abuse, and I know she HATED it), but still the limpet clings on.

One thing to bear in mind, and it may be the same for your H (though every case is different), but my H has finally admitted that the affair is all to do with his insecurities and his need to be the centre of attention, and nothing to do with OW - that is, it is not some great love affair (though he initially thought it was). Sadly, even though he knows this, he is not yet prepared to give her up

I just feel like I am the one doing all the work. I mean, even entertaining the idea of taking him back after he treated me so badly is something. I have been to hell and back, and he wont even get out the front door iyswim

What is wrong with these men ARGGGGGGGGGHHHH could gladdly slap them all!

Slap away......

I think it is more than a time deadline - it is a boundary that you give yourself and if he doesnt keep within it (or even try and get in it) then you know it will never really work out.

For me it was the new year - i finally realised that unless i did something we would stay in the limbo of him having his cake and eating it (he was telling me we were working at it and going to counselling - but it just didnt feel right), i found out she was still on the scene and made a solicitors appt to get things moving.

I thought - i would not allow my children to be treated to anymore of his coming and going and me really not knowing deep down that he was back for good.

It was the kick up the bum HE needed. He finally saw for the first time that i actually did not NEED him for me to move forward with my life. He now says that for the first time he was scared he would 'miss out' on what i would be having. and he knew he still wanted me too . I had the strength to set my limits too. I slowly started to get my own life.

It was at this point that he had a breakdown and the begging started - it was pathetic to watch but necessary for us both - the dynamics sundenly changed and had full control.

The reason my h had his affair was 'because he could' we were both willing to allow him to cheat on us both - me for a long while because i didnt know and her because she wanted to believe it was the love affair of the decade. He couldnt choose because he was so scared of missing out on anything (he was an only child and so got his own way most of the time). For about 4 months he was trying to decide what to do for the best - he knew i loved him and wanted it to work and would do the mimimum to make sure i was still around and he would tell the ow he could not leave because of the children - she would then 'help' him. Neither of us knew the truth from him.

So when i got the strengh to do what was best for me - he was forced into making a decision.
Looking back i think the ow hates that fact more than anything i could do to her - i had the strengh that she didnt.
I am sure she comforts herself that he only came back for the children - and at the time in his frame of mind maybe he did - but now we have made a new relationship for us and i do now feel he is here for me.

You will get the strengh you need - you may not get him to stay, which i think means he is not worthy of you anyway.

Once you feel sucure in what you are prepared to tolerate you will feel in control again and much happier whatever the outcome.

Good luck.

happymum - that is a great story. you are clearly a very strong woman

I dont WANT this to end, but ultimately if he is not able to do what is necessary I will not be the person holding everything together for BOTH of us. Looking back, that is what I used to do. I dont want to go back to how things were, but to a new relationship with h.

should I let h know about the deadlne in my head? i feel if he doesnt know, he wont know what he is working against, but if he did know it would be me telling him how to handle this again, and putting 'pressure' on him.

I dont think you need to tell him about the deadline - afterall it may well change if new events are discovered.

Is there anything you can be doing for just yourself at the moment? Could you get him to take some responsiblity to do the childcare while you get to do something just for you.

This will act to show him that you are not just 'waiting' for him to return but if it all does go wrong you may have found some new friends and interests.

There is no going back to the old relationship - so take this chance to form the new one that you really want.

You could tell him clearly that you are not prepared to wait around for much longer and that you are going to start taking steps to make yourself happier from now on - if wants to be on that journey with you then good but if not then it will be his loss.

This is where i think my h suddenly had to think about what i would do instead of just himself.
It is hard and a bit false at first to phone friends and suggest new things. But i promise you it is worth it. He actually could see that i would one day meet someone new and probably have wonderful sex with them too (as we did have a good active sex life )

Take some time to think about something you always wish you could do but have maybe 'given up' for the marriage. (for me it was running and generally keeping fit - i am not saying i have gone straight back into it but i did put myself in for a 10km race and really enjoyed it). I no longer have the 'guilt' about taking time for me.

All this is easier to say now than do then but i am so much better than i was then - i still have 'down' days but i also have learnt the skills to do more for myself and i know i am worth it too.

I also have no fear of him leaving again - i know that if he does i will be ok (seeing the solicitor helped with that a lot too), he now wants to be part of my lovely life now instead of the other way around.

tbh I have already done that.
my social life is MUCH more active than it was, and I have started climbing - something I had wanted to do for a long time. As I had prepared myself for a life without him (thought he was going to bugger off with ow permanently), I sorted my life out.
This is why I find it hard to wait for him. In the nearly 4 monthsince this started, I have had counselling, moved on, and so I wasnt ready to think about having him back - I had taught myself to not expect him back iyswim.
And so to confound things further, he has not moved forward AT ALL since he moved out. All the old problems are there, as well as new ones. Yet I feel reasonably sorted, just ambivalent about whether I want him back.

mhis - Just read 'not just friends'. That was a fantastic book too, and I highly recommend it. btw h has not even LOOKED at the book I gave him last week...

off subject - stirlingmum do you really live in stirling. I am up there next week, and could do with some recommendations about places to take an 18mo...

Yes I am near to Stirling.

What sort of places do you want to visit?

I am just going to collect little dd from nursery so shall have a think and post again later.

Btw, I found the book "Not just friends" so helpful. I read it early on in this fiasco and still go back to it and dip in. And my h is the same, I found books for him to read and he hasn't read them

Ratbunny - Thanks for the recommendation will have a look at that.

I'm resisting the temptation to ask DH to look at the book I have bought - 'after the affair' even though I feel it may help him. I have got to stop 'telling' him what to do as I feel that this was one of the problem areas of our relationship. He acted like a child (re decisions) and I mothered him by telling him what to do etc. I feel that by suggesting he reads this book I am doing just that. He needs to stand on his own two feet and make his own decisions. Otherwise he will never move forward.

He picked up DD tonight - 15 min late. No apology or explanation but he was okay with me - no conversation. She is due back in 45 min....hopefully he will be on time with her.

This whole process is so difficult and the feelings I go through are unbelieveable. i can swing from feelign so positive to being an emotional wreck to positive to angry to sad in the space of an hour. Such a rollercoaster and so difficult to cope with

Right (puts tourist information hat on...)

Stirling Castle is great for a wander around. Not a ruin like many you see.

Blairdrummond Safari Park is a great day out, although you need nice weather as it is all outside.

A bit further out but Auchingarrich Wildlife Ctr is nice for the smaller ones as you can touch some of the smaller animals. Nice cafe and outdoor play area.

In Stirling, a nice play park is at Kings Park, near to golf course.

Near to me The Dunblane Centre is a really nice place to meet friends. They put soft play stuff out for toddlers every Tues 10 till 3:30 and Thurs 10 to 12 in the sports hall. Just drop in. Refreshments available.

I would be more than happy to meet up. My youngest is 4 but she would love to meet your ds. I will leave it up to you.

That would be great RB - I am a sahm so could easily fit in with you.

I was thinking about the lack of conversation between h & me just tonight.

When he talks about ow, that is something he brings up. They talk alot but we dont. Well, I think that is so unfair because they work together, know the same people and have lots to discuss.

I can talk about the dc and my friends and feel so very excluded from his work. He talks about people that I haven't, and probably will never, meet, because they are all over europe.

But I also feel I have shut down a bit and dont discuss things with him that I normally would have done. I am waiting for him to open up a bit more. Could be waiting a while I think!!

As for the rollercoaster - I am so sick of it - I can feel myself shutting down recently. Maybe best way to deal with it all.

stirlingmum - are you by any chance in the 'ambivalent' stage?

also broke into hs facebook and ow has added him as a friend. will be interested to know it he accepts.
perhaps the confrontation IS necessary....

Definitely feel ambivalent - Maybe because I have been hurt so much during this - I feel as though I really dont care whether he goes or stays now - just want to know one way or the other so I can plan my future a bit better.

I do know if he is in contact with ow again, without being completely open about it, that will be the end.

I was reading the diary I have been keeping last night and feel I have changed alot just in the last couple of weeks.

I agree with NQC in her first post at teh beginning of the thread. Stay seperated whilst going to counselling - his and couple counselling (Relate). It will be a good buffer.

I wonder stirling if a part of you wants him to contact her so you will be justified in making the break too?
I know you have wanted it to work so much though but he is still not stepping up to the mark.
It is good that you have changed too - that is one of the good things for me too - i know myself so much better now. But i still sometimes almost wish i could 'catch' him out to prove to myself just how strong i am now. if that makes sense.

I agree with happy woman, in a sense. perhaps if we knew they were still in contact you would feel justified in stepping off this emotional rollercoaster? (and me too)
Totally echo that sentiment of wanting to know one way or the other so you can plan your future. In a sense perhaps we should plan for them NOT coming back, then if they do it is a bonus?

I have been talking to my fantastic counsellor again. He will also be counselling h, and eventually couples counselling for us. He has reitereated to me that I am doing nothing wrong, from talking to him, wanting to confront ow, trying to get him to commit etc etc but that his inability to deal with guilt is something from his childhood that makes him turn his guilt against me. He says he is intending to do some really intensive therapy with h, and also said he will let me know if he ever thinks he CANT change, so I can move on.

But, everyone repeat after me:
ITS NOT MY FAULT. WE OWE THEM NOTHING.
the fact that we are still around shows what lovely, strong, caring people we are.

I think HW if he was still in contact with ow it would explain his ambivalence.

I know he is in the process of getting made redundant just to get away from her but he is doing it in the style of a teenager who isn't getting their own way!!

He told me about their conversation when they said goodbye and thought that they would never meet again and he told me how sad it made them!! Like I am going to sympathise!

We are now going to have to sell our house and downsize, and all because of this eastern european tart!

Sorry - feeling low today - Rant over

I got that too stirlingmum - oh I am so sad I miss her. Yeah, I care.
BUT in the books I have read, it does say this is natural for them, no matter how much we hate it.
Just perhaps they shouldnt tell us that part?

I too think i read that he would feel a loss - so what? But h was very down and i think it went on until he was really sure he only wanted me iyswim. He said goodbye but deep down didnt really want to do it so instead made all of us feel sorry for him and his loss. I do believe there must be a sense of some sort of loss after all these ow were friends first, but surely the loss of the most important women in their lives should hurt even more?
This is when i do think h made his turnaround. once he truely believed he had lost me.
Whilst there was still both of us 'hanging' around for him he could still be in the fantasy.
I felt like my h was saying 'hey - look i have done what you asked (given up ow) so what more do i need to do and then feeling all hard done by and expecting me to be grateful for his huge sacrifice .

I also believe that unless/until they have the full consequences shown to them they will only do the minimum.

This for me was the biggest revelation - i would worry that i was 'nagging' h about things - but now i tend to just say it and think 'actually i dont care what he feels about it'. Of course i still want us to be together but not at my expense anymore - he has to do what i want now, i deserve at least this much.

Hope you find the courage and strengh to know you owe yourself a good life and if your h's had any sense they would want to make that happen for you too, and go to the ends of the earth just to make it happen.
Stay strong and true to yourselves.