What on earth am I playing at

[youfoolwoman]

I have a male friend I have know for many years in a purely platonic way. We are both in long and happy marriages.

Recently, I seem to have gained a new sense of self-confidence, which seems to have made me attractive to men for practically the first time in my life (several have mentioned it and I am simply not used to that kind of thing) Anyway this friend is among them and we have been spending more and more time together, although we have not slept together and I am determined we won't, he has made it clear he would like to.

This is very difficult to explain and I have given it a lot of thought, but whilst I am very flattered and enjoying the attention, I honestly don't find him physically attractive. I have tried fantasising about him (to test myself) and it really doesn't work, he just doesn't turn me on. But, I do love the time we spend together, he's great fun and the hours fly by.

There has recently been some touching e.g if it's a cold evening, he'll put an arm round me, or (even more )he has been known to massage my shoulders. For me this just feels companionable and really cosy TBH, but I know it's not like that for him.

Neither of us have ever met the other's spouse, so it somehow seems that when we're together we're living in a kind of parallel reality, the lives we live with our families are somehow part of a completely different life IYSWIM.

I know I need to spend less time with him, but we share a desk at work so it's not that easy and in any case I would be losing a really valued friend. We have talked about it and agreed it can never become anything more than it is, but that we really enjoy each other's company. Neither of us is unhappy at home and would never ever want it to impact on that. So on the face of it, we remain just good friends, but the reality is that when we're together there's always something in the air.

We could make sure that there are always others there when we're together, but the fact is we have a better time when we're alone. You know how if you have a really good girl friend, it's fun to go out with a group, but you have the best conversations when it's just the two of you?

I can't help thinking we're playing with fire and it can only end badly. Can anyone see a way for us to stay friends, without hurting people we love and/or ending up hating each other? Thank you if you got to the end. I'm really struggling to see a way forward for this friendship, but it would be a massive loss to me if it has to end. I've known him for almost 20 years.

I don't know skidoodle I've always really compartmentalised work and home, have never had friends that cross over from one to the other.

My friend has recently suggested a weekend event that we would both enjoy. There's no way I'm going on my own with him, but perhaps I could suggest that all 4 of us go. Guess I'll find out how he'd deal with me meeting his wife. One difficuly we both have though is babysitters, , it's often easier to go out alone than together. When we do have a 3rd party babysitter, we like to make sure we make full use of it

No, I don't agree that you should lose your job if you don't like it, obviously. Just saying I wouldn't have made a fuss about it - it's just not something I can get worked up about.

Interesting about the weekend event. Do you think he was suggesting that you two go alone?

The cheeky bugger.

If you'd like to go anyway it would be sooooooo interesting to know how he'd react to your meeting his wife.

And of course you'd tell your old chums on Mumsnet how that went down

Oh hang on. I realise that a "weekend event" might just be an event at the weekend rather than an all-weekend event where you'd have to go away together.

duh.

Something that is coming up on this thread is monogamists' boundaries and how varied they are. Some people do seem to feel that anything other than utterly business-orientated interaction in a work environment is 'emotional affairs' or 'sexual harassment' which I find a deeply depressing worldview: other people are happy for their partners to engage in flirtations up to (and possibly even including) heavy petting... the key factor is that when you are in an existing relationship which is at least nominally monogamous, you talk to your partner about what is and is not acceptable in terms of interaction with other people. As in: would your partner mind you having lunch alone with your workmate? Is it OK to dance with workmate at the Xmas party? Are texts/phone calls out of hours indications of An Affair or just friendship? These are not questions with set answers.
And I do think the OP has a valid point about not being responsible for her office pal's wife's feelings - their relationship is their business, not hers, and for all she knows his wife might be reacting like her DP 'It's nice that other people find you attractive darling but remember who you are coming home to,' or any variations on that theme.
It's stil difficult to maintain a friendship (whatever the people concerned are doing in the way of other relationships) when one side wants to fuck and the other one doesn't - but if the one who wants to fuck is someone who has lots of amicable casual sex and is cheerfully lecherous then it's often easier to manage such a friendship than if it's someone who has previously been a model of monogamy suddenly expressing profound lustful feelings.

Yes skidoodle it was just something on at the weekend, not all weekend, but even so, I don't really think he thought we would go, just that we would enjoy it if we did.

@madamez

"for all she knows his wife might be reacting like her DP 'It's nice that other people find you attractive darling but remember who you are coming home to'"

Or in this case: 'It's nice that you want to have sex with your colleague but remember who you are coming home to'"

"but if the one who wants to fuck is someone who has lots of amicable casual sex and is cheerfully lecherous then it's often easier to manage such a friendship than if it's someone who has previously been a model of monogamy suddenly expressing profound lustful feelings"

that is true

What I find depressing is that people seem to find it impossible to distinguish between friendship/harmless flirting and emotional affairs. The OP described the latter - a desire to spend time with this person alone, not involving/keeping secrets from her partner etc etc.

pheebe- have you got that the wrong way round?

No I don't think so, what the OP originally described was ime an emotional affair

sorry pheebe- but I don't think it is an EA- I think she describes a friendship- but he is wanting it to be physical, or flirting with that idea and it makes her wonder how she can keep the friendship, but cut out the nudge-nudge, wink-wink attitude he has.

IMO an EA is where it is like a real affair- all very emotional and full-on, but just stopping short of sex.

Here are the specific reasons why I think the OP is describing an EA, all speak to me of a desire to spend more time ALONE with this man and to keep it separate (secret?) from her H:

I do love the time we spend together, he's great fun and the hours fly by - HOURS, not the odd drink after work, the odd dance at a works do, days out with each others families

There has recently been some touching e.g if it's a cold evening, he'll put an arm round me - if it was just friendship a quick hug and move away

Neither of us have ever met the other's spouse, so it somehow seems that when we're together we're living in a kind of parallel reality, the lives we live with our families are somehow part of a completely different life IYSWIM - a fantasy world separate from RL

the reality is that when we're together there's always something in the air - !

but the fact is we have a better time when we're alone - ALONE, and a desire to protect that alone time.

yes, yes- but can't you see that the OP says she is NOT wanting to take it further and asking how she can keep him as a FRIEND and not a lover?

HE is the one taking it- or trying to- a step further, not her.

She also says "I m really struggling to see a way forward with this friendship, ....I've known him for almost 20 years".

Just because they get on better alone, doesn't mean it is an EA-just because they seem to live in parallel world, doesn't make it and EA- it might in your head, but it is not in hers.

She has NO DESIRE to have sex with him- hat to me, is not an affair of any kind- it is a friendship that he has overstepped the mark with.

The only person who can tell s though is the OP_ are you there and how is it going?

"It's stil difficult to maintain a friendship (whatever the people concerned are doing in the way of other relationships) when one side wants to fuck and the other one doesn't - but if the one who wants to fuck is someone who has lots of amicable casual sex and is cheerfully lecherous then it's often easier to manage such a friendship than if it's someone who has previously been a model of monogamy suddenly expressing profound lustful feelings."

Agree completely with this. I have close male friends - some have been friends for years and years but it's very clear that we would never shag each other and nor do we want to.

Unfortunately the only way I can see this working is if he sorts out very clearly in his mind that he isn't going to ever try it on. Can you get him to understand that without these boundaries that your friendship cannot survive?

Is this still going? It's ever so kind of you all to be so concerned!

madamez I think you're right. AFAIK he has never been unfaithful to his wife, so it does worry me a lot that his is important to him. Obviously he's not going to tell me now if he's a serial adulterer, but I have known him a long time and I have never heard any rumors, in fact in the past he has been scathing about men who "play away".

pheebe emotional affair is not a term I have heard before, but I get your point. I don't think I am, but him, possibly... He goes away with his wife and family this weekend and I really hope they have such a fantastic time that he realises what an idiot he's being and we can all get back to normal. Unfortunately, they're going with her parents, so...I don't know, it's unlikely to be very romantic.

We've never had a day out together, but we have had days where we work pretty much alone together and a quick drink after work will sometimes turn into all evening, without us realising the time.

jimjam That's where I thought I was with this man TBH, would never have occurred to me that he wanted to sleep with me until recently and we've managed to stay on that level for nearly 20 years. I don't know where this came from and the honest answer to your question is I don't know. He knows his attempts will never be successful, but whether that's the same as being clear in his mind that he will never try, I'm not sure. Hopefully, things will be more clear-cut after our 5 week break.

Its the OPs desire to spend time with this man alone and keep it secret or at least hidden from her H that makes this an EA in my mind. Doesn't have to be physical or for them even to want it to be physical, its an emotional attachment that is clearly stronger than a simple friendship on the OPs part as well as the other party. I would find this a betrayl of my trust in my husband and really I guess the only person whose opinion really matters would be the OPs H.

Fascinating discussion, made me think alot about boundaries and such.

OP, I hope this has given you food for thought also and perhaps suggested ways forward for you. Good luck, hope it all works out

YFW - sorry that post must have sounded very distant! It was directed to girlnextdoors question so I hope you don't think I was being rude and ignoring you

I do hope you can find a way forward, it must be really tough for you whichever way this works out

(((hugs)))

Pheebe- maybe there are issues here over physical monogamy and emotional monogamy?

IMO I don't think that spending time with a man and having a great time, and having loads to talk about is a sign of disloyalty to a partner- just the same as if it were women friends. Actually, that's how the OP described it.

We don't "belong" to anyone. It is possible to have close friendships with men -or women- that don't threaten a marriage. If she still wants to go back home to her DH at the end of the evening, I can't see why anyone would put the friendship into an "affair" box, emotional or otherwise.

And- even if you call it an emotional affair, does it matter anyway? She still wants to be married, she still goes home to her husband, but don't you accept that we can't get everything from just one person? But it doesn't mean we care less for them just because we need other people in our lives too.

Hmm, I can see your point but actually I do feel that you should be able to get most of your emotional support/needs met by your chosen life partner. Friends offer something completely different to my mind. Theoretically speaking it would be interesting to know what the OPs H felt about this and whether HE felt it was an emotional 'betrayal' (strong word but can't think of anything better) to him and how that would colour the OPs perception of her relationship with this man. What defines this as an EA for me is the apparent NEED/DESIRE to spend time with him and the NEED/DESIRE to keep to separate/secret from the H. That, to my mind. goes beyond a normal extramarital friendship and crosses over to something entirely different that I have chosen to label as an emotional affair.

YFW hope you don't mind us using your situation as a basis for talking about this

I don't mind at all pheebe I had no idea my situation was so complex and I thought I was prone to over analysing!

DH does know most of the details now(except the touching and this is not going to happen again) and doesn't seem in the least bit bothered.

I am most concerned for my friend now as I am sure his wife knows nothing of what's going on in his head and I think this might actually be part of a much wider mid-life crisis for him. (he's talked about packing in job/family/everything and disappearing) Very scary. I really hope his holiday with his family sorts him out. He does seem to be looking forward to it.

YFW, very glad things are straight with DH

Sometimes the kindest thing you can do for people is to make the decision for them and walk away as hard as that may be

Hope it all works out for you