August 2026 - Well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

I have started a new thread as the other one is now full.

Parenttherapy

If it is not too late to cancel this session today I would cancel it now. It’s no point whatsoever in doing this with your mother. You have two qualities she lacks: empathy and insight and she will likely ring rings around this therapist too. Your father and brother are her willing enablers and cannot be relied upon either. Infact a clued up therapist would never agree to see you both in the same room.

yes I absolutely agree with the “in their heads they believe they are doing something nice”. That’s the problem isn’t it, they aren’t nice but have absolutely no idea about themselves that’s based on reality. The problem is always the other person and if you that rigid about the world you occupy it leaves absolutely no space for them doing someone wrong. If you don’t like the gift then you are wrong.

I honestly thought for a long time I could get the other person to see themselves as I do. With my ex over a decade of “if only he could just see what he’s doing then he’d stop”. But that’s the problem isn’t it, they can’t see how their behaviour hits, that or don’t care because they live in a different space. You are the problem for receiving them the way you do because they are perfect. They are never ever going to see themselves through your eyes.

I want to believe some people just don’t know any better, but in these cases it is hard not to feel hurt.

@MustIgoyes my dsis spending habits are the reason I chose my username she certainly does like to spend which is why we are in this mess

@MustIgo when my sister got out of an abusive relationship and had contact with women’s aid, they said that there have been very in-depth studies on abusive men, and they have tended to, in the bitter end, admit that it had always been on purpose. All the: I didn’t know you would feel that way, I was trying to be nice, I try but I can’t read your mind blah blah blah that they come out with to their partner, behind it all they always know.

Yes it’s very clear they know, they know right from wrong, they just don’t care. It’s a very dark place to go to. That’s why the damage is so deep. They say the monsters are in story books but you learn that they are human. It’s a scary wound, a scary place. It has taken me a long time to see the good in the world, especially nature. People not so much really.

My father was abusive, and I'm sure it is one of the reasons why my mother is the way she is.

I am convinced he did most of it on purpose, with the specific aim of causing upset and distress. It was never about the thing it appeared to be about. He would say it was because the dinner was awful or the house was messy or some other bizarre transgression we had apparently committed. But really it just made him feel like a big man to bully his family. He enjoyed it. I suspect he might even have admitted that if pushed. But he was always very very clear that if he acted like a bully, it was because we had made him do it. He never took responsibility for his actions (and suggesting he might be the one in the wrong would inevitably trigger another violent tantrum, so in the end it is just safer to agree that it's your fault).

My mother got caught in the trap of trying to make him just see what he was doing for 20+ years, clinging to the belief that if he just knew, he would stop.

No he wouldn't, because the bullying was the goal.

@fabcrabs yes, exactly. You could be trying to show them how much they’re hurting you for the rest of your life, all you’re actually doing is showing them it’s working!

Plus she got totally stuck there, because she could not just say ok, you win, and walk away. She was constantly trying to make it work. She couldn't see that there was no way to make it work. Or ask herself why she would want to make it work with such a poisonous little man, a drug addict with no money. Wr were on the surface I suppose a respectable middle class family but underneath just utterly rotten.

She coped by parentifying me and expecting me to always centre her and fix things for her. I think I'm being punished now because I stopped centering her and started to make decisions based on my needs instead of her wants. She still tries to push her way into stuff and make herself the centre of attention and I ignore it.

The framing it as intensional changes the whole situation. I was thinking about why my MIL moves away from any photos positioned with me. I thought maybe she just awkward, but she isn’t with others. Through the lens of intensional she could be smearing my name and then doesn’t want evidence of being happy with me. She can re-frame the situation as “aren’t I so nice making an effort with this trouble maker”. Now I feel stupid turning up.

I think sometimes the dreadful presents are another example of attempting to control and manipulate. They know that you will notice (especially if the give nice gifts to other family members) but realise that the outside world won't see what's happening so you will look grabby/petty if you complain. So you receive a gift and they can tell people that, but you know it was calculated to show what they think of you but feel you can't say anything for fear of being see as unreasonable and selfish. Similarly, in Spendysis's case the 'gifts' may appear generous but the recipient is put in a position where they feel they have no choice but to spend lots of their own money. Thus forcing someone else to spend their money to prop up their image.

My GB1 did a similar thing with his attention. The more I made it clear that I did not want to be around him the more fuss he made about wanting to spend time with me and how much he cared about me etc. To the untrained eye this probably looked like trying to build bridges but his reaction when I didn't go along with it showed that it was all about controlling the narrative and attempting to control me. The message from him was very definitely that I could not remove him from my life without making myself look like the nasty one. So he thought he would win either way- either he won the fight to make me remain in his orbit, or the rest of the family etc would take his side. On my wedding day, he was fully aware that I had not wanted him to be there and only agreed to it after months of emotional blackmail from our parents. He insisted that the official photographer take a 'special' photo of just the 2 of us (I, DH and the photographer made a lot of noises about time/plans etc but it became clear that he would not back down without causing a scene). He would have know that it made me feel incredibly uncomfortable but also known that I wouldn't want to upset mum or embarrass myself by making a scene (plus of course the underlying threat that he was unpredictable with a history of violence). Afterwards, Mum somehow managed to order copies directly from the photographer and one was on pride of place in her home for years (no other photos of my wedding were displayed).

@fabcrabs I'm sorry you went through that. The framing everything as your fault sounds exactly how GB1 treated his wife (+ sometimes OW) and children, and to some extent our parents. It was ALWAYS about him enjoying the feeling of control, including in my opinion feeling very strong and clever being able to make his family agree to take the blame for his actions. The more people tried to appease him and accepted his ways the more extreme his actions became- almost like he needed the upset and arguments like some sort of fix.

Fuck me it just gets worse. INTENTIONALLY positioning a child as the persecutor so you are the victim is so sick. I always thought it was just unintentional. Somehow positioning with intent feels worse. It’s a child!

It was mental - a few days after my mother told him she wanted a divorce, he cornered me in my bedroom and said 'you've finally done it, you've bullied your mother into leaving me, now you need to stop because we're a family and your mother and I love each other.'

I may have disagreed rather strongly. He never spoke to me again. But just imagine, after 25 years of calling your wife a cunt, telling her she ruined your life, that she's lazy and she smells, giving her a black eye when you felt the need, then turning round and trying to pin the blame on your teenage daughter. How pathetic and desperate would you have to be. What's interesting about it to me is that is was clear that despite everything he said, he didn't want the marriage to end, he wanted to carry on exactly as he was. The abuse was just stress relief for him.

@fabcrabs What an absolutely vile man. I think perhaps this is quite common with people who abuse their spouse. Most seem to blame their victim for being too [insert excuse] or not sufficiently [insert another excuse] but they could usually walk away relatively easily if they were not happy with the situation. I think they often stay because they like the feeling of power and/or, as you say. a sort of stress relief. Infact, I think all too often telling the victim that they are ugly/worthless/dirty/stupid etc is part of the plan to prevent them from feeling they can leave. GB1 definitely did this with his wife and unfortunately although our parents never condoned his violence etc it suited them to tell themselves that his allegations against her were true and she was at least partly to blame for the situation. His narrative was basically that he stayed with his wife for her sake, and the sake of the DC, because she was far too stupid/lazy/dirty/boring/friendless to manage if he left. Staying was a selfless act and yes, sometimes he lashed out in frustration or had a 'moment of weakness' with another woman but wouldn't anyone? When he finally drank himself to death his wife managed just fine but I don't think she would ever have felt she had the power to leave him in any other way. I feel very sorry for the children caught up in the middle of this. In GB1's case, school/social services etc were aware of his alcoholism and violence but since there was never any complaint of physical violence against the children directly and his wife never pushed for charges to be brought against him (even when she did involve the police) no steps were ever taken. I do often feel perhaps I could have done more for the DC but I'm not sure what. They do not speak to me now (his wife does) as they feel he was a lovely man troubled by alcoholism and I let him down by not offering him more care and support. I can see why that is a more comforting way to remember your father than thinking he was a selfish abuser.

@formalwellies l definitely think the gifts are a control thing. My BiL is always pretending to be Mr Nice Guy and will spend hundreds of pounds on someone he hardly knows to convince them of it. Then, his brother who is the only one who ever properly cared about him, he’ll verbally abuse and tell lies about and then pull a sad face saying he’s bringing our gifts because he still wants us to have them even after all we’ve done. Mugs with sweets. But to others that don’t know, it sounds like he’s chosen thoughtful presents, he’s so nice he still wants us to have these things even after everything we’ve done (been unable to bend the laws of physics).

My MiL also controls plans like your GB on your wedding day. She’ll take over birthdays, other people’s new years or Christmas parties or plans. And it often includes things she knows people don’t want but when it’s public and you would seem unreasonable for refusing, she can push you into things. She also says absolutely horrible things in public places when no one else can hear her.

Like many on this thread (hence the title I assume), my family were always very careful to project the image of a 'lovely, close, respectable middle class family'. I had always assumed this was the reason behind the unhealthy dynamics and particularly my parents' reaction to my brother's behaviour. I assumed that everything was done to protect that image; if our parents had acknowledged and addressed my brothers' behaviour it might have involved 'outsiders' and damaged the image, if they were allowed to face any consequences people would have seen (our parents managed to get them out of situations involving criminal actions on several occasions), if I kept up my 'good girl' image and seemed happy to be around them this helped the image. Even the enmeshed/codependent relationships with the boys helped keep their actions managed whilst keeping up that image of being close and lovely.
Now that DM needs care I am seeing a different side to this and wondering whether actually the unhealthy dynamics were actually the goal and the image was just a way to cover this up. It's pretty clear to me that this image prevented people asking questions, and meant that any suggestion of unpleasantness would either be disbelieved or excused as a mistake. This is certainly what's happening now with Mum. It's clear to me that her needs are not being met and this will get worse as her condition worsens. GB2 is adamant that no external help is needed and he will look after her. I suspect this is motivated by money- keeping the financial help he currently gets from her and wanting to inherit her house. The 'lovely caring family' image means that HCP have no concerns and the outcome of a social services needs assessment was basically that nothing was needed as family do everything for her. Even when I have voiced my concerns to HCP/social services, GB2 and Mum have been very convincing in persuading them that whilst things might not always be perfect everyone is trying their best and there is a plan in place. Keeping Mum isolated and dependent on GB2 is badged as 'what she wants' and spending her money is just 'pulling together as a family'. Now that GB2 has realised I won't be going along with this and doing all the actual difficult caring etc I am being gradually pushed out and my concerns about management of Mum's finances badged as wanting her money myself. I won't be fighting to be involved, or letting myself be dragged in further in to their mess. But I do feel a responsibility to speak out (since Mum is very vulnerable) and am realising just how hard it is to get anyone to look behind the 'Lovely family' image.

I just realised how much training there is involved that I’ve missed. My H and his brother and the GF give their parents access to them and their children despite doing absolutely nothing. NOTHING. Nobody questions this but me, but I’m the problem. Am I a problem to question why they let their children be offered on a plate to people who do nothing for them, what kind of love is this? What have I missed? Is this the lack of boundaries?