August 2026 - Well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

I have started a new thread as the other one is now full.

I doubt it. They aren’t abusive in the sense many are on here. They just have an over developed ego and all rivers need to flow towards. They are very close as I’ve mentioned earlier to being very decent and charming people. It is only when you are of need that you recognise who they are or if you don’t agree. The ego is very very covert

I have been reading about boundaries to see how that can help children. I always thought that Narcs just hate people and they don’t see people. But the more I read the more I understand about the issue with self esteem, identity and boundaries. They don’t have self differentiation. They don’t have any boundaries whatsoever, they don’t have an end to them. They are effectively everyone else and no-one and always in relation to others. I thought a good way to help my children is to help them know who they are not in relation to anyone else. Not compare them, not talk badly about others or say you are better than these people. Just to talk to my children as them as individuals. That way when they go out into the world they don’t compare themselves, they know they are brilliant and others are brilliant and that different is ok. Someone else having something or being someone doesn’t detract from them.

@MustIgo I think showing your DC to understand and value themselves without reference to others is definitely a good thing. My family have always defined themselves (and everyone else) by reference to others. We, of course, were always 'better' which lead to a lot of denial and mental gymnastics when anything happened that appeared to go against this. As @Eeriefairy mentioned, this was something I didn't realise until I had my own children and realised it was definitely not how I wanted them to grow up.

My role was to be 'good' and 'helpful' so I always felt my worth depended on what I was doing for everyone else. Brothers were (apparently) the smartest and most talented. I don't remember anyone in my FOO ever expressing happiness about the success of someone outside the immediate family. There were always comments about that persons failings in other ways and/or the luck/help they'd had to help them get there so that really it wasn't such an achievement. As well as being unhealthy in all sorts of ways, I think this attitude prevented issues with my brothers' behaviour being acknowledged and addressed when it could have made a difference. For example, the family were happy to agree with GB1 that he didn't need any external help to deal with his alcoholism, to follow any sort of programme or even to fully stop drinking- he was better/smarter than that, and with family help he could just cut down and get back to social drinking (spoiler alert- he never actually cut down and died as a result of his drinking).
Mum is now elderly and at a stage where it's obvious to anyone vaguely sensible that some sort of assisted living accommodation would be best for her. When I have attempted to encourage her to consider this and when it's been suggested by professionals and friends who have experience of this, her response is basically that 'those places' are fine for some people but she's better than that. She feels similarly about employing paid carers. So she's living a miserable existence with very little social interaction because she looks down on anyone who doesn't live in a big house or needs help.

I have been so guilty of this in the past a couple of times but have put a massive stop to myself. What was happening when I came into this family is the golden child and his family was the bench mark. Me and my H and kids are not able to reach this bench mark. The brothers children are so well behaved, from a distance I felt less then as a parent. My kids are still kids, young, silly, messing around and fucking it up constantly. Their kids are similar age but very sensible. But having spend some time with them the kids are not healthy, full of anxiety and fear. I thought this family was something I had to aspire to.

I’ve backed off considerably and let my kids be kids. I don’t want them to constantly worry and monitor their behaviour against others. If one wears make up and expresses who she is dramatically then so be it, if they want to hate make up etc then so be it. But I want them to make these choices not based on how others respond but because they’ve had the opportunity to try that identity on. I don’t want to be a “we are not that kind of family” people. We also don’t look down on others for their choices.

Does the golden children on here feel such pressure being it? Did you get joy out of positioning yourself high? Could you stop comparing yourself or was it just unconscious?

@MustIgo it's slightly scary trying to let go of the instinct to tell your children to be careful what others think of them isn't it. I had a bit of a wake up call with my youngest child a few years ago- he has always found academic study harder than some but talked as if he wanted to push himself to do A levels/university etc. As he approached his CGSEs we had a few chats with him about career paths and saw a huge sense of relief and general change for the better in his demeanour after we reassured him that he didn't have to follow an academic path it he felt it was not for him, and that we just wanted to help him understand what would make him feel happy and fulfilled. It dawned on me that he'd probably been feeling he had to follow the path that people would expect.
It's interesting that you mention make-up. I was brought up to believe that wearing make-up/jewellery or 'dressing up' other than for special occasions was a sign of being self absorbed and frivolous. I am now in my 50s and still feel self conscious if I paint my nails or put on some lipstick when I am not going anywhere special. DD likes to wear make-up and jewellery every day and I have to make a conscious effort not to pass comment. I decided recently that I will start wearing more myself, but it's tricky when I have no idea what products to buy and I do worry that I look slightly unhinged.

It’s scary walking this path with no guidance, mostly just knowing what you don’t like. I don’t care what my children do, I just want them to be happy and feel like they never had to prove themselves to me and definitely not to a bunch of strangers. I think the power comes from just not caring about fitting in, their mum has definitely never fit anywhere really. I just wish I had someone around to tell me I’m doing ok. I never ever whilst I’m still alive ever want my adult daughters to sit and wish someone loved them.

So narcissism is basically an adult stuck in fight flight mode and those fight flight behaviours have been adopted as their personality? So basically there is no one underneath the survival behaviours because they never developed? They are built to survive something long after the something has gone. I remember by ex H used to say (quite aggressively) I don’t give a f**k what other people thought of me yet it was blatantly obvious to me that he cared a great deal and everything he did was for the benefit or he absolutely hated them.

@MustIgo that’s an interesting point about the pressure on the golden child - of the ones I know, none of them have amounted to anything. It does make you wonder if they sort of fail to launch because of all the expectation to be better than everyone else.

I am also trying hard to not express any judgement about others in front of my kids. If I asked how come other families did things differently I would always be told that basically because they weren’t as good as us. I just say “Well, people feel differently about things and choose how they want their lives to be.” I think maybe in my case it sort of led to me feeling a bit stuck because you never know how you’re going to be judged. Interestingly, my family is a drinking family and they made me feel like I was doing something wrong by stopping drinking. I did it anyway, because I knew drinking wasn’t doing me any good. But that’s how backwards their judgement can be.

I think it must be the ego that’s causing them issues. It’s the ego born of a child I guess who had no one else to protect them. The ego goes into overdrive in protecting them. A supportive parent would tell the child right from wrong and guide them and help them to accept when they wrong. They don’t have this, they just have an ego protecting them from everything. So anything they do is right even if it hurts them or others, like drinking.

The more I think it’s actually quite sad really. The extent of what they went through just destroys themselves and everyone else eventually one way or another. Their kids either get the same treatment and develop their own ego issues or anxiety or whatever else.

My MIL has ripped her family apart into factions. Injected ego and it’s just destroyed all that’s family. I am trying to pull it back with the brother and cousins but the resistance isn’t worth it. Those kids are already converted. One is so anxious she is one who might not be like them, she’s soft at heart.

@Eeriefairy @MustIgo It's an interesting point about the outcomes for the Golden Children. My DM grew up in a very dysfunctional family and has several Golden Child brothers. One has been reasonably successful. Although he positions himself as the 'head of the family' he does not seem to have brought his children up with the same dynamic. The others have had lots of opportunities but never seem to achieve much and never seem happy. My DM doubled down with the 'we are better than everyone else' message and firmly positioned my 2 brothers as Golden Children. Neither of them has been successful or particularly happy and having seen this close up my observation is that they really struggle with the fact that the rest of the world does not see them as special and does expect them to abide by the same rules as others. They seemed fine when they were young enough that our parents could intervene to 'save' them (I remember numerous issues with school where they were in trouble but our parents refused to accept they did anything wrong, plus times when they found them jobs with friends after they had issues at work, helped them financially when they got in a mess and on more than one occasion smoothed things over when they were in trouble with the police). But as time went on that became impossible to keep up and I firmly believe that never having to face any consequences of small mistakes meant they simply didn't believe they would/should ever have to deal with the consequences of their own actions, which lead them to do things that most people would have realised were not a good idea. They were always so firmly entrenched in the belief that they were superior that they have also never felt they should have to put in the same effort as others or take advice from anyone. As an example, a few years ago GB2 decided that he was going train to do the same sort of job as my DH. He was adamant that (despite having no relevant experience and huge gaps in his CV) he would be accepted on to a 'fast track' scheme and would be above DH within a few years. He refused any offers of help with his application or advice on things to research/prepare etc then was horrified when he did not get an interview. He claims that this was clearly due to prejudice against people with 'real world experience' and he's glad he didn't go to work for an organisation so useless.

I think it just all solidifies the delusion part of it. It’s all nonsense. A person can believe that fairies are real and find evidence to support this if they so wish. I think the point is maybe just to teach your kids they aren’t better then others or they aren’t worse then others.

@MustIgo I agree. Plus, I think it's important that children learn how to fail and mess up. By which I mean learn that sometimes they won't succeed and that's OK but they need to learn from that and work out what to do next, and that sometimes they mess up and that's OK too but actions have consequences and they need to learn how to be accountable. In my experience, the Golden Children have never learned any of this. They have grown up with the narrative that whatever they do is the best and right, and if it appears not to be then it's either everyone else that's wrong or someone else's fault that things went wrong. So they become adults who lack resilience and feel persecuted when in the real world things don't always go their way.

I don't mean we should just leave our children to it and not help them through difficulties, but we need to allow them to see the reality that they won't always be the best/will sometimes be at fault and guide them on how to manage that.

My H’s bro will do things like buy both kids the same for the birthdays, so they don’t actually get to experience the other having something and they don’t. I don’t personally think that teaches them anything. If it’s not your birthday then it’s not your time for attention. I’ve always given a token gift to the child whose birthday it’s not but I would not be spending identical for the non birthday. No like you say emotional regulation is a good thing to learn so you not bratty and jealous when you out in the world.

When I came into this family I thought it was so different. I was actually a bit jealous of the other family, they seem to have it all. But both their and our family both don’t have any attention from the parents. None of the grandchildren have any of their attention. I guess his brother has tried to adhere to the rules but he has as little out of it as we do, which is sad. But a lesson for me, if their song and dance gets nothing then there isn’t any reason to try at all.

There is no reward to be gained here no matter how much you try.

I'm sorry if this doesn't help you right now but I'll say it anyway in case it does or if it helps someone else.

I totally identify with this feeling you've posted, but I've come to question it. I'm thinking maybe because we've been expected to tolerate so much negative or bad behaviour, it's caused us to have unrealistic expectations of everyone else. We're there for everyone, so we expect them to be there for us.

Apart from the occasional dire emergency, or a best friend who you spend all your time with, or a partner, or an emotionally healthy family member - I don't think anyone ever is there for anyone else. It's just us unhealthy people doing that because we have been brought up to feel it's expected of us.

Sometimes I think this is why people put up with a lot of crap from their partner just to be in a relationship, because that's mostly the only person who's there through good times and bad. So it causes people to not want to be single, even if the only partner they can find is a mediocre one. I came to the conclusion that the answer to "nobody is ever there for me when I need them" is to level the playing field by not expending all my energy on being there for others myself either.

Sure, I'll call the fire brigade if my neighbours house is burning down, but I'm not housing them until it's repaired. I'll respond to friend's texts and calls and I'll make the effort to check in with them myself, but I'm not available for that while I'm working, eating, meditating, sleeping or out with someone else. I'll reply in between those times, when I'm actually free. If all calls are drama, I'll change the subject after I've listened and given advice and sympathy. If that doesn't work I'll distance myself until the drama is over.

I didn't used to be this way. I used to be all things to all people, but it wasn't doing me any good. Just meant I attracted users and made me ill.

Most people are selfish at heart, they take what they need. I think many of us have been bread to be co-dependant and end up sucked dry, we think our use in the world is to support others, over empathetic.

Even people who help others I’m not sure they do that anymore for selfless reasons. I’ve hardly seen this friend now since I decided that she was using me to feel better about herself. I stopped responding to her invitations to be helped and she’s moved on to helping other people. Despite all the times of telling her she is going to exhaust herself and that she doesn’t need to be of use to have a relationship she can’t stop.

A lot of people don’t seem to like themselves and Narcissists are just an extreme example. I wonder why this is happening more and more? The rise of narcissism is actually the rise of self hatred.

@SamAndAnnie I think you make some really good points there. I think that a lot of us have been brought up in dysfunctional families to believe that we should put everyone else's needs first, and encouraged to believe that this is just the right thing to do and of course everyone else should do the same (but somehow everyone else's needs are always greater than ours so we're always in 'give' mode). I know this was the case with my family and it definitely meant that for a very long time I accepted the same in other relationships. I have often been that 'friend' who drops everything to help when a 'friend' is upset/needs a babysitter/needs a lift/wants a place to stay etc then finds out that I've not been invited to the fun stuff, or finds everyone is too busy if I could do with some support.
I've come to realise that there is a middle ground, and it all starts with having the confidence to have boundaries and accept that if someone doesn't like that they are not the right friend for you (rather than thinking you've lost a friend). That doesn't mean I won't help anyone, but I won't automatically rearrange my whole life to save someone else an inconvenience. I think this way I have come to find a small group of similar people.
If I am honest, I think in the past I have assumed that someone asking for my help somehow signified that they felt I was (or could be) a close friend and by dropping everything to help I somehow cemented that friendship so they would help me if I every needed it. In reality, all too often they just asked because they needed something and I seemed to be available.

Hi all, it’s been a while. Have been busy living life, trying not to give headspace to family stuff (both mine and DHs), as that seems the only way. But had to phone my mum today. I don’t know if anybody else does this, but around narcissistic people I have to build myself this wall to not get sucked in. I’ve come to see that I don’t have to solve their issues or feelings, but it is so, so hard. I get really stressed, it feels like I am literally, physically having to fend them off, even when texting or emailing. I feel so silly, why so unsettled? And then I read this from Mustigo, and it is totally what it feels like. But the more I read the more I understand about the issue with self esteem, identity and boundaries. They don’t have self differentiation. They don’t have any boundaries whatsoever, they don’t have an end to them. They are effectively everyone else and no-one. Yes! To them, we are a part of them, so no wonder I need to pull like crazy to stay out of their orbit. Even just to be me, even when there are no demands. I don’t want to be a part of them, so I do push back and keep my distance. And then you’re made to feel like the antisocial one, the uninterested one, the mentally ill one, the one that’s lacking. Gosh, they do a number on you, don’t they.
I am so grateful to all of you, you are all so open about your own situations, and that really helps me feel less bad. Although I wish you all would’t have to deal with all the horrible things your families put you through.

I think I just felt that way because I have a toddler currently and she is soooooo narcissistic 😝. You made me sad, you made me happy, you make me food, you give me drink, you sustain me, you are responsible for me full stop. In return I’ll give you absolute hell, I’ll scream and hit and bite, if you ignore me I’ll go climb on your dining table or throw something at the window! Me me me….. that’s why god made them cute because otherwise we’d RUN! A narc is simply this with greater intelligence!

@MustIgo the cuteness does help! Also knowing they’ll grow out of it usually ..

@MustIgo I had never previously thought of my narcissistic brother (GB2) in terms of toddler behaviour. But you are spot on!

In my case the 'Toddler' is with Mum and currently flipping between terrible 2s behaviour and 'I love you mummy, you are the best mummy ever.' I am the horrid big sister and the usual attitude to me is 'I need X, Give me X!, I hate you, go away she's my mummy!' But when Mum can't give him what he wants there are moments of 'Big sister look after me! Look after me NOW!' All complete with thrown crayons, stamped feet, childish insults and (largely) empty threats.

That is currently my go to phrase to my H….its a phase it’s a phase…phew