(TW SA) 2nd thread (support)…

[ByPinkPoet0]

First thread www.mumsnet.com/talk/relationships/5497497-trigger-husband-sa-why-cant-i-tell-him-and-why-do-i-feel-guilty

Huge thank you to everyone who has supported me in this so far. If you’ve got this far I really appreciate it. I read all the advice even if it seems like I don’t take it on board straight away. It’s been a difficult time of realisation for me.

I am making another thread so I can continue to post.

This is such a helpful outlet for me I’m so grateful ❤️

You said you thought sex whilst asleep was ok in a couple even though you didn't like it.

No sex is ok if you don't like it. It doesn't matter if you kiss, cuddle, express love, wander around naked - the second you don't want it, consent is withdrawn. "Leading on" is such a horrible, pernicious rape myth.

You don't owe him because you are married, because he wants it. You don't ever owe anyone access to your body.

Coerced consent is no consent. Freely given, enthusiastic consent is the only thing which matters. You shouldn't have to tolerate being woken up to have rough, violent sex you don't want.

He won't stop through negotiation, you have to get yourself to safety, away from this man

Hmm, but we're allowed to change and grow, OP, or to realise a situation isn't right or good for us over time.

Imagine he wasn't SAing you but had always punched you in the arm to show affection. And you put up with it because you didn't know any better or thought it wasn't a big deal.

If you got to a point where you thought, "hang on, this isn't fun for me, I don't like this" - would you expect him to keep on punching you just because he always has?

We're allowed to reset boundaries.
We're allowed to withdraw consent.

Look, me and my bloke used to have a particular sexual act as part of our sex life, and after a while, I realised it wasn't what I liked in bed particularly. So you know what? I told him ... and we stopped doing that. We just stopped. And he's never mentioned it again or tried to do it again.

Because he wants me to enjoy myself and he only wants enthusiastic consenting sex. He is very keen to have sex, but it's more important to him that I want it too than his own drive.

I agree, it’s crazy to push her for specifics in her situation.

Ted Bundy vibes all over. All the therapy in the world won't wave a magical wand to cure him or you.

Get professional advice (cover your tracks) and make plans safely to leave this monster.

You've been groomed since you were not much more than a teenager, you've been raped and abused ever since. It's understandable your head isn't where it 'should' be, so please, PLEASE focus on getting your children out of this before too much more damage is done x

@ByPinkPoet0 here is a link on Claire’s law and feel free to ask questions on this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clare's_Law

Will look and see if I can find anything else. Because of course his ex was “volatile” and he wasn’t the problem at all 🧐

Yes 100%.
let her feel safe!

Couldn't agree with this more. I heard of a lot of vile men who have betrayed their wives by cheating on them while pregnant or with small children. What your husband has done/ is doing is so so much worse and I can assure you it is 100% a decision he is making not something he cant control.

Would he find out about it?

and what would it potentially show? I know he doesn’t have a record as we’ve been to countries where you have to declare this

Yep I totallly get what you’re trying to say now, thank you for clarifying

I agree with you that seems like a more common reaction . Doesn’t make it right of course

Doesn't make it right, but it's not even considered a minor criminal offence. What he's done to you, by contrast, is one of the most serious crimes, and carries a maximum sentence of life imprisonment. That's now serious what he's been doing is.

He would never know. It is to tell women if their partners have been in abusive relationships before and had contact with the police

No cheating isn’t right of course.

But I would rather my husband cheated than raped me.

And while it’s not something we should compare, I would genuinely rather he punched me square in the face than raped me.

The trauma from rape is so all consuming that there isn’t much else to compare it to. Living with your rapist, trying to manage his behaviour by placating him and ‘giving in’ often enough to stop yourself being raped again has put your body into a sort of permanent fight or flight panic mode.

You must be absolutely, utterly exhausted. Mentally and physically.

This cannot go on, it will destroy you. And it will destroy your children. And it won’t change for as long as you remain in this relationship x

You mentioned at some stage you have no access to the joint accounts. Contact the bank/banks and demand sight of your joint accounts from them. You can also say that you do not want your DH to know you have access as he is abusive. I have done this in the past. If your name is on the accounts then you do not need his permission to have sight of them.

I'm sorry if I have misunderstood and the accounts are solely in his name. In that case you cannot demand access at this time.

My DM had a very similar attitude to sex, she also had the idea that men ‘need’ sex and that it was a woman’s job to meet that need. She actually still blames herself for what my F did to my DSis and me, thinking it was because she wasn’t giving him enough. I think she still has that mindset now.

When I was struggling with my traumatic memories of the CSA, and unable to have sex with my DH, she told me I should ‘lie back and think of England’ because it was a wife should do for her husband. It’s an attitude that was all too common historically; after all, rape within marriage has only been illegal since 1991.

Whereas in fact my DH didn’t actually want to have sex with me under those circumstances, and just wanted to be there for me, as he always does. This is what a loving relationship should look like, OP.

I am so glad you have the type of relationship now where your DH supports you , you really deserve that after what you’ve been through ❤️

Sadly that attitude is common and I’ve heard similar things from women in my life. I believe he thinks like this too because he definitely talks like he ‘needs’ it. and that if he doesn’t have it it affects his mood, mental health , whatever . I think that’s how he makes his peace with it , like - I can’t help it , it’s not my fault. And if I’m ‘withholding’ sex then what do I expect him to do. He has said things like this in the past when I’ve pulled him up on behaviour.

He hasn’t said any of this lately. Right now he is being very cautious and supportive.

this is interesting to read and has really made me stop and think.
im definitely one to fall into the trap of thinking it’s not ‘that bad’ what’s happened to me . I am reading that book at the moment someone recommended and it’s very informative about different types of controlling behaviour that I may not have noticed .
I do feel pretty exhausted , but some days I feel a little better than I did before x

Very crudely OP if you’re ‘withholding’ sex he can have a wank. He’s not entitled to your body and if it’s an orgasm he ‘needs’, he knows how to achieve that himself.

I’m glad he’s being better at the moment - I genuinely hope it lasts. You deserve peace.

I’m glad it made you think and I’m proud of you for reading the book someone suggested and recognising some patterns in it.

There are worse things someone can do than hit you or cheat on you. One of them is rape. I feel like he’s brainwashed you to the extent you feel grateful he has sexually assaulted you rather than cheated on you.

That’s a very unusual way to think about a relationship, but I think it stems from him creating a world view for you where your relationship is so intense you ‘can’t live without each other’ and he ‘can’t help having sex with you’ even if you don’t want to. All this intensity means you feel you wouldn’t cope without him and that him leaving or cheating on you would be the end of the world.

It wouldn’t. It would be the start of your recovery process and a calm, peaceful life for you and your kids.

Can I ask whether you think you’d end the relationship if you found out he had been cheating on you?

often I like having sex with him. I often find myself telling him how much I love him during it. So he then takes that as a great let’s do it daily /as much as possible. She loves it. He’s often saying that to me that he knows how much I want him.

Have you seen the tea/consent video? I feel like someone will have linked you to it at some point.

Imagine he made you a cuppa and it was great, and you said "oh wow, that tea was fantastic, it really hit the spot, I love you, I love your tea!!"

Would that mean you're then obliged to drink tea all the time whenever he wants to make a cup?

Doesn't matter if you love tea some of the time, when you don't fancy tea, you don't have to have it.

even the language of 'witholding' sex is problematic, because it implies that sex is something that women grant to men, but dont really want to. That its transactional, and not something that two people engage in enthusuiastically.

And I agree with the previous poster who said that the western media promotes that idea - indeed Id go further and say that ALL patriarchal societies do that - imply that men are these highly sexually charged creatures, and women are the gateholders of sex. Which is only, ideally, supposed to happen in a monogamous relationship. And many still would have it as a male entitlement, a contract of marriage, and that its solely for the male pleasure.

There are cultural and historical reasons for this narrative, but its not a true narrative at all, and I dont think it is healthy or creates true intimacy and respect between the sexes. Misogyny in all forms feed into this narrative too - and all the red pill incel speak, and porn - its all part of the same false narrative.

Im not going to dferail with that, but its possible that you strongly associate love with sex. That it confirms to you that he loves you, and keeps you confused, because the sex is actually unwanted and often violent. Its possible that the heightened emotions, and your body reacting simply to physical stimulation, release hormones which are designed to bond you - oxytoxin in particular. Back in history, women who were difficult/stressed/ anxious /unhappy were sent to Drs to have special massages and treatments, to make them feel happier and more content. I dont need to go into what that massage involved. But Oxytoxin is a powerful drug. And Im sure those women didnt love their doctors (well, not to begin with!) It can make you feel lovely though. Even when its not wanted. Which is just a big confusion psychologically.

Add in Stockholm Syndrome. Im not 100% sure, but its a thing. And could explain added confusion

Love is care though. Care and trust. And knowing your partner has your wellbeing at heart. These are the things that make love last and build it from the bonding chemicals of sexual attraction in the first months

Perhaps thinking of the different ways you can respond to his pestering would be useful, because it sounds like he brings it round to how you saying no makes him feel rejected or like a pervert - it is always about how he feels in the situation. I don’t know you in real life, but he comes across as a bully that hides behind a charming exterior and makes you feel wrong-footed with whatever you say. You could literally turn it all around on him:

“I do enjoy sex with you when I want it, but I don’t want it right now, and when I don’t want it I won’t enjoy it. Does what I want matter to you? Why are you trying to make me feel bad about not wanting sex now? You say I make you feel like xxx well you are making me feel like an object. Why can’t we show affection to each other without it turning into sex every time?”

I think one of the manipulative tactics your husband uses to confuse and control you is that he says things that are almost right - but actually are very, very wrong and complete misrepresentations of the truth.

For example...

"You're making me feel like a pervert for fancying my wife." The issue isn't that he fancies you, it's that he rapes you and sexually abuses you by coercing you into sex without consent. (And of course, he actually IS a pervert, a sexual abuser, a rapist.) So what he is saying is a totally inaccurate version of what is actually happening.

"If you kiss me or smile when I am suggestive that means you are signaling you want to have sex with me." No, you are able to kiss someone or smile at them when they make a suggestive comment without consenting that equating to consenting to having sex with them. One does not automatically mean the other. You have been very clear with him by telling him that you don't want to have sex. He knows this, too. Under the circumstances surely he should be double and triple checking with you that you are happy to have sex, so that there can be no confusion. But he doesn't care if you consent or not. As others have said, I actually think he prefers it when he knows you don't consent.

I wanted to tell you what my husband was like in both of my postpartum phases as you seem to find it helpful when people tell you what actually is normal in a healthy relationship. After my first child was born I had a second degree tear. It healed really well and I wanted to have sex again a few weeks later, as soon as the midwife said the wound had healed enough. I had to tell my husband really clearly several times that I was ready to have sex as he was imagining it would be off the table for months, and even after I said I wanted to he told me that we didn't have to and even when I said I wanted to he said we could do other things if I was more comfortable with that. I practically had to say to him "I am ready to have sex now and would like to do it tonight", because he was so highly prioritising my comfort and readiness and wellbeing.

After the second baby I "only" had a first degree tear. I assumed if be ready for sex quite quickly again but actually for whatever reason I found that second delivery much longer to bounce back from and I wasn't ready for ages compared to my first delivery. My husband didn't bring up sex or suggest sex or ask when I thought I'd be ready for sex. He just waited until I told him I was ready.

Yes, all through this thread I have been thinking the same: how horrific it is that until very recently this was what marriage entailed: sex on demand with up to nine children or even mire, and possibly an early death. All the while these women had to live as though everything was fine.

Thank you , this all makes a lot of sense to me and it would explain why I feel so conflicted all the time. I definitely feel a sense of duty and like I owe it to him.

I guess I would also expect that someone who had been SA by someone they trust would be completely horrified by sex forever and the fact that I’m not always if confusing for me.