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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

I think this is the end of my marriage and I don’t know what to do

190 replies

VeryOriginalUsername1 · 12/12/2025 09:23

I don’t know what to do. I have been married for 12 years. We have 2 boys. Our eldest is 7. He is autistic. Our youngest is 3.

My husband cannot manage his behaviour. I have begged him to access some parenting advice as I have so that we can be consistent. He says he can’t, he would not understand.

A lot of the time things are fine and we are a happy family. But then something will happen. This morning my eldest son was taking something that is special to him into school. He dropped it in the car and in anger kicked my husbands seat. My husband was driving.

This has happened to me before. I pull over, explain how unsafe it is for me to drive like that, wait for him to calm down, and then carry on.

My husband flipped. He did an emergency stop on the car, both boys cried. He screamed at our eldest son. He carried on driving and then did an emergency stop again because our eldest son kicked again. I banged my head on part of the car and the boys cried even more. I was trying to stay calm and diffuse everything. We got to school and my husband was still shouting. Another mum who I know was looking at me as if to see if things were ok.

When I took my eldest son into school he told me that his dad had shook his (my sons) leg. I asked my husband about this and he said he did, to stop him because he was about to kick again.

This kind of thing is happening more frequently. I’d say maybe one a fortnight or once a month I’m not sure.

What do I do. My children love their dad and he loves them. We have a happy family life usually. But I feel like I’m on eggshells and knowing my son has gone into school after all that has broken my heart.

Is this just normal and to be expected, am I expecting too much of my husband in terms of managing our son’s behaviour? He thinks I am. I just don’t know anymore.

OP posts:
usedtobeaylis · 12/12/2025 12:44

This is not ok and if you do end your marriage there are steps you can take to prevent your husband having unsupervised access with his sons. It would be entirely justified while he refuses to take steps to change his behaviour.

usedtobeaylis · 12/12/2025 12:45

ILoveLaLaLand · 12/12/2025 12:44

OP's husband reacted the same way most people (other than those self-identifying as saints) would react in the same situation. People lose their shit from time to time. This was one of those times. Don't let the son sit behind the driver ever again or in the front seat as he could pull the handbrake or grab the steering wheel when he loses his temper.

He's doing it frequently, not from time to time.

VeryOriginalUsername1 · 12/12/2025 12:45

Lavender14 · 12/12/2025 12:36

Op has your dh EVER had any support around his feelings about your sons diagnosis?

If your background is working with SEN and you have professional training as well as the personal training you've put yourself forward for, you're already ahead of where a lot of parents would be coming to terms with a diagnosis as well as the behaviour management and support side. So in that respect I think you do have an added 'advantage' there and what can then happen is that you naturally end up taking the lead more but actually that doesn't help the other parent to step up/ process/ develop skills because there's a safety net there in that you'll do it.

I think you're absolutely right to be pushing him to engage with support. I think many parents really, really struggle to adjust to firstly a diagnosis and the fact their child may have a different experience of life than other children, but also that they will need to parent differently. Often our parenting (unless we've done a lot of work on ourselves) tends to fall back to how we were parented especially when we're under pressure and overwhelmed. Would this kind of reaction be how his parents dealt with him when he was acting up or they were overwhelmed? If so I think thats a conversation to have because that's not really OK for any child.

I think realistically if he's not generally abusive here and this is genuine overwhelm and lack of knowledge/resources then the best case scenario is that he steps up and he drops the pride/ fear whatever it is and he gets proper support. The alternative is you become a lone parent and he has no further involvement with your kids, you become a single parent and he has contact where he's going to face the same problems but alone, or you need to find another way to navigate this. So on that basis, I don't think I'd be ending the marriage yet, but I would be making engagement with support a condition for him returning to the home. It's not enough for him to just say he's sorry, he needs to action change.

I would arrange for a meeting with the school for you both to speak to the senco for advice and support, I'd look into parenting program specific to caring for children with autism and I'd look into whether there are any peer parent support groups for parents. He SHOULD be looking into this himself but realistically that's not where he's maybe at so I would give him the details and then I'd want to see him attending and then have a conversation about returning to the home. Marriage counselling would also be on my list because you two need to be able to get on the same page and he needs to be able to open up to you about how and why he's struggling and he needs to really understand the impact his behaviour is having on you as well as the kids and you need to find middle ground.

It can be really hard getting childcare when you have a child with SEN, do you have anyone who would be able to babysit to enable you both to engage with support? And ideally to give you both a little down time together in the future on a semi regular basis if he does start to make the changes you need to see?

This is all very hard op and I feel for you. Once you've exhausted all options and if after this come to Jesus talk he's still refused to engage in any meaningful way then he's not really leaving you much other choice than to go it alone.

This hits the nail on the head really (as well as many other replies, thank you so much)

We don’t get any downtime together. I know this is something he finds particularly hard, as do I. Even watching some tv in the evening doesn’t happen, because by the time the boys are asleep I am physically and mentally exhausted. Which in all honestly causes resentment from me to him too.

OP posts:
RightSheSaid · 12/12/2025 12:47

Parenting a nerodivese child fan be challenging. The thing is your H is expecting more from your child than he's expecting from himself. He wants your child to regulate his behaviour by responding in an angry, aggressive manner. He expect your 7 year old to self regulate while he as a grown man can't.

Your Hs behavior, doing an emergency stop, was incredibly dangerous. He could have seriously hurt one of you. His response was extreme. Your son kicking the seat while not ideal because its distracting and irritating would not have caused an accident but your Hs response absould could have.

Your H is choosing not to educate himself. He's choosing not to learn strategies or understand is child's condition. It's weaponised incompetence at its best. He is making a choice not to engage.

Only you can decide what's best for your family. I personally would insist on anger management/ therapy. I would also insist on engagement autism training. You can't make your H do anything but if he continues not to engage or make changes then that in itself is a choice. And, it's a choice that I wouldn't tolerate.

We all do stuff wrong. I know that sometimes my response has escalated dysregulstion. The difference is I self reflect. I consider what went wrong and how I can change things next time. I've done both to face and online training. I'm trying to get it right.

ILoveLaLaLand · 12/12/2025 12:47

Soberfutures · 12/12/2025 09:27

That is abuse. Please leave. No child should have to put up with that. Yes your DH is obviously not coping with bringing up an autistic child but there is help and he is choosing not to access it.

Utter nonsense.

Furiousbaker · 12/12/2025 12:50

VeryOriginalUsername1 · 12/12/2025 10:56

I know you’re only trying to get a response from me, but no, no one’s needs matter to me more than my children’s.

I’ve read your replies OP, though not the whole thread, so excuse me if it’s been said before.
Parenting classes don’t suit everyone and are very much dependent on who’s delivering them. Some classes are too broad or basic or patronising and some people just can’t engage. If you could get your son’s teacher to meet with you both and explain directly to your husband a couple of strategies that work in the classroom, that one to one conversation is harder to ignore once he’s engaged, if you get what I mean!
The goal is to get him to manage your son’s behaviour and the way he does that might not be the way you do that - I do the calm bit, my DH has always used humour to distract our (now adult) child. It works for them both.
If your husband’s response is always to lose his temper then that’s one thing but the occasional loss of temper when the children’s behaviour is distracting and dangerous isn’t the end of the world
Only you know whether your husband can learn to manage your son’s behaviour but it would be better for all of you if he does and you can stay together.

Onbdy · 12/12/2025 12:51

Screamingabdabz · 12/12/2025 10:41

I agree. A lot of these replies are baffling to me. How can you always remain calm and serene when you’re driving 2 tonne of metal and your kid is endangering your whole family and other road users with some tantrum. Yes the child can’t help their impulses but your husband is human too.

It’s not abuse, it’s his absolute frustration coming out. And I guess fury at having no one empathising with his situation. The child might not feel ‘safe’ in that moment but will get over it. The grown adult who holds all the responsibilty is not feeling safe at any time.

People on here must be absolute saints to never lose their shit around daily challenges and volatile behaviour.

I agree! I was reading some of these thinking WTF? We are all human. Pulling over and calmly explaining the dangers is absolutely ridiculous! Autism is not an excuse for poor behaviour.

CheeseIsMyIdol · 12/12/2025 12:51

VeryOriginalUsername1 · 12/12/2025 12:45

This hits the nail on the head really (as well as many other replies, thank you so much)

We don’t get any downtime together. I know this is something he finds particularly hard, as do I. Even watching some tv in the evening doesn’t happen, because by the time the boys are asleep I am physically and mentally exhausted. Which in all honestly causes resentment from me to him too.

Have you tried to source any childcare so the two of you can work on your marriage?

Lavender14 · 12/12/2025 12:55

I would say that a lot of ND people, especially older ND people have had extremely negative experiences with school and education. So I can actually understand why the idea of a 'course' of any type could be really daunting to him if that's how any form of learning has been for him previously. However I think it's important to point out that this isn't school, this isn't standardised education, this is him as an adult going to get support and he needs to look at what he'll get out of it, as opposed to how he'll perform at it. Alternatively could you source 1-1 sessions with a provider so he doesn't need to worry about not being able to engage with the material in front of a group of people? Or could he/ you both together ring ahead and speak to the tutor and explain what it is he wants to get from the course and what he's worried about and see what support is available. These things are hard and yes, there are certain barriers to further education, but it's not impossible if he's willing to put himself out there and that's the key bit that you can't do for him unfortunately.

Laura95167 · 12/12/2025 12:55

Shaking the leg isnt acceptable but tbh im with him on the emergency stop. Kicking when driving is dangerous, I think DS needs to sit behind the passenger seat going forward for the safety of everyone in the care

With the wider picture its simple DH needs to accept the help available or risk losing your family. Your DSs safety must come first

Daygloboo · 12/12/2025 13:01

VeryOriginalUsername1 · 12/12/2025 09:23

I don’t know what to do. I have been married for 12 years. We have 2 boys. Our eldest is 7. He is autistic. Our youngest is 3.

My husband cannot manage his behaviour. I have begged him to access some parenting advice as I have so that we can be consistent. He says he can’t, he would not understand.

A lot of the time things are fine and we are a happy family. But then something will happen. This morning my eldest son was taking something that is special to him into school. He dropped it in the car and in anger kicked my husbands seat. My husband was driving.

This has happened to me before. I pull over, explain how unsafe it is for me to drive like that, wait for him to calm down, and then carry on.

My husband flipped. He did an emergency stop on the car, both boys cried. He screamed at our eldest son. He carried on driving and then did an emergency stop again because our eldest son kicked again. I banged my head on part of the car and the boys cried even more. I was trying to stay calm and diffuse everything. We got to school and my husband was still shouting. Another mum who I know was looking at me as if to see if things were ok.

When I took my eldest son into school he told me that his dad had shook his (my sons) leg. I asked my husband about this and he said he did, to stop him because he was about to kick again.

This kind of thing is happening more frequently. I’d say maybe one a fortnight or once a month I’m not sure.

What do I do. My children love their dad and he loves them. We have a happy family life usually. But I feel like I’m on eggshells and knowing my son has gone into school after all that has broken my heart.

Is this just normal and to be expected, am I expecting too much of my husband in terms of managing our son’s behaviour? He thinks I am. I just don’t know anymore.

You should get counselling and your husband be taught behaviour techniques. Can you find a therapist who specialises in autism. You must be able to sort this out with proper behavioural techniques rather than splitting the family up.

Nine2five · 12/12/2025 13:01

TeaBiscuitsNaptime · 12/12/2025 11:26

The question is, can he manage his behaviour in work and outside the home. Because if he can't manage his behaviour, he would have lost jobs or been penalised in other ways. If he hasn't, that means that he can manage his behaviour

This has nothing to do with how the husband behaves at work. I’m pretty sure nobody kicks him in the back or screams at him to shut up while he’s at work.

We are talking extreme/dangerous behaviour. I myself am a nervous driver and if anybody kicked the back of my seat while I was in traffic, I think I would probably lose my shit too.

maybe the op should sit in the back and control the kid while Dad drives.

AttilaTheMeerkat · 12/12/2025 13:04

He can control himself at work but is unable to do the same around his own family. Therefore he does not have an anger management problem. He does not want to engage with parenting classes saying that he can’t or won’t understand. I hope some time at his mothers will allow him to further reflect on his roles in this family.

BeeHive909 · 12/12/2025 13:04

Being autistic doesn’t mean he can get away with kicking a seat. That’s no excuse. Can you move his seat so he sits behind you. He shouldn’t be emergency stopping but you shouldn’t be calmly stopping, this behaviour needs sorting.

Allthecoloursoftherainbow4 · 12/12/2025 13:09

Tryingatleast · 12/12/2025 09:35

I think his reactions are awful but your calmly pulling over is the other extreme, and something I know I wouldn’t do, and actually in most cases it isn’t faesible anyway. people panic, and kicking the seat while someone drives isn’t a small thing. I do think he needs to go to classes but if these things happen because of extreme situations as opposed to the everyday I don’t know that it helps any of you to break up the family. You both need to meet somewhere in the middle and show solidarity with each other

This. Someone kicking the back of the seat while you are driving is actually very dangerous as it's an unexpected distraction from the road/vehicle.

I actually you need to show a stronger response to your son when he does this because it's actually really dangerous. What if your husband hit a pedestrian or something because he was distracted by his seat suddenly being kicked?!

User23461 · 12/12/2025 13:12

VeryOriginalUsername1 · 12/12/2025 12:40

Thank you so much for so many thoughtful replies. It has given me a lot to think about.

The points about my husband not coping and possibly feeling resentful are very valid. I think this escalates in these circumstances, because when he does scream and shout and scare our son, my priority becomes helping and reassuring our son, rather than focusing on our son’s behaviour.

To be clear, I am fully in agreement with those posters who say you can’t let autistic children or children with adhd get away with things just because they are autistic/adhd. I see that with some of my son’s friends and I think it’s wrong. I set very clear and firm boundaries with him. But he does have meltdowns and these can be very hard to predict.

With the car seat being where it was, this was the first time in a year that it has happened. Also, it’s not always there. My husband had some work things in his car and took the car seats out and put them back in. I can’t say for certain, but when I think about it I don’t think he does usually sit behind the driver. But just to make the point that I don’t keep sitting him there whilst he’s kicking.

A lot of posters have asked if my husband could be autistic. I’m autistic myself. However, I think it’s highly likely that he has ADHD and possible that he is autistic. He has recently begun to seek help for some mental health problems too which have an impact on him, specifically OCD. He recognises that this could be the source of his anger. He can recall many anger outbursts as a child.

I have messaged him about the parenting courses but haven’t had a reply yet. The reason he thinks he wouldn’t be able to understand it comes back to the possible ADHD, and how much he struggled at school. But I am literally begging him and have been clear that it’s the only way forward that I can see to support our children and save our marriage.

I agree that this isn’t straight forward or black and white. The circumstances are very challenging and he is struggling with that, but it keeps coming back to that I can’t let that impact our children.

@VeryOriginalUsername1 I haven’t read the full thread and did one other post.

I read a few responses and what other people said about your husband not coping as well as what you said about him.

A thought.

On the parenting courses suggestion, maybe that is not necessarily the right thing? Is there a possibility when everything is calm to sit down and ask him what he thinks could help him to cope? If staying calm (or at least reasonably calm) is none negotiable what is it that he would need to get there. The answer can’t be you siding with him, when he get’s angry. He doesn’t seem to want to do a parenting courses, what ever the reason for that. Fine. But what are the other options? Find some other appropriate help? Agree on a plan? You agree on some key word/phrase for situations like this; I don’t know, you put an arm on his shoulder gently and say ‘take five’. He would have to agree to that, but the idea is it would serve as a tool to say, hey, it’s happening again, I’m losing control again, I step back now and let my wife deal with the situation whilst I try to regulate myself - he really would have to get on board with that and I imagine it wouldn’t work all the time but could be a tool.

Your son will always be more important than him, your son is a child, he is an adult. But if you for a second thought of your husband as another person that needs regulation, what help is the appropriate help to slowly get to a better, calmer place? How to get through to him to make him understand that you are on his side, but as he doesn’t want to tolerate certain behaviours from your son, some of his behaviours are also non-tolerable.

Justanotheruser2 · 12/12/2025 13:18

This resonates a lot as my DH sometimes reacts the same to autistic DD, especially when driving. The difference is my DH is willing to do the courses (although a lot of them don't really seem to be scheduled to suit people who work full time), and while he's not very pro-active at reading up I have left books on his desk or sent him links and he will look at them.
However what we both struggle with is, all the courses talk about not letting them get to that stage. None of them have told us what to do if she has a meltdown (often because we've enforced something non-negotiable like cleaning teeth or not yelling at her brother). Walking away doesn't work as she just follows, so I don't blame DH for restraining her rather than standing there and being hit. I usually end up putting a door between us and holding it shut but that's not great either.

Apocketfilledwithposies · 12/12/2025 13:25

Why doesn't he want to be a better dad?

Say he's autistic or ADHD or both, that's no excuse for his escalating your son's meltdowns and crisis points with his own anger.

Say he hates the idea of a "course". That's no excuse for not trying to self reflect, or learn, or better himself in other ways! There are so so many ways for parents of Nd children to learn how to understand and parent them and it seems he's just not done that at all. There are books, blogs, online groups, in person support groups, videos, podcasts, etc.

Your son's home needs to be a safe space. 😞

Have you let the school know formally about what happened this morning? So they can keep an eye on both boys for things like headaches/neck aches etc?
If not, you should. I'd consider putting it in an email TBH. Because if he can't reign in his anger and learn quickly how to self regulate around his children you will be facing a situation where you won't want him having unsupervised contact with them.

dobbylan · 12/12/2025 13:27

VeryOriginalUsername1 · 12/12/2025 09:23

I don’t know what to do. I have been married for 12 years. We have 2 boys. Our eldest is 7. He is autistic. Our youngest is 3.

My husband cannot manage his behaviour. I have begged him to access some parenting advice as I have so that we can be consistent. He says he can’t, he would not understand.

A lot of the time things are fine and we are a happy family. But then something will happen. This morning my eldest son was taking something that is special to him into school. He dropped it in the car and in anger kicked my husbands seat. My husband was driving.

This has happened to me before. I pull over, explain how unsafe it is for me to drive like that, wait for him to calm down, and then carry on.

My husband flipped. He did an emergency stop on the car, both boys cried. He screamed at our eldest son. He carried on driving and then did an emergency stop again because our eldest son kicked again. I banged my head on part of the car and the boys cried even more. I was trying to stay calm and diffuse everything. We got to school and my husband was still shouting. Another mum who I know was looking at me as if to see if things were ok.

When I took my eldest son into school he told me that his dad had shook his (my sons) leg. I asked my husband about this and he said he did, to stop him because he was about to kick again.

This kind of thing is happening more frequently. I’d say maybe one a fortnight or once a month I’m not sure.

What do I do. My children love their dad and he loves them. We have a happy family life usually. But I feel like I’m on eggshells and knowing my son has gone into school after all that has broken my heart.

Is this just normal and to be expected, am I expecting too much of my husband in terms of managing our son’s behaviour? He thinks I am. I just don’t know anymore.

I work with adults with Autism for over 10 years:
Firstly if anyone says to you "leave this man, he is childish etc, best believe they have no clue how challenging this is"

Many will not agree with me but this is more common than people think about and most marriages break up because of this.

Your husband like many other parents, can get all the classes known to man but these things sometimes just aren't in us to manage.

Sad to say but you will likely lose your marriage the more worse it gets and maybe he just needs to suck it up , as easy as it is to say, it is not always that easy to do and he may just wash his hands.

Your child needs all the help possible with anger issues around his autism.

waterrat · 12/12/2025 13:30

Having Sen children is a huge pressure on the family and your husband is not coping - he needs to get support himself or yes you have to set a boundary that it can't continue.

dobbylan · 12/12/2025 13:31

VeryOriginalUsername1 · 12/12/2025 09:53

Im really grateful for the replies so far, thank you so much. It’s hard to talk about it in a real life.

Just wanted to respond to some of the points. He would say I’m too soft. He might not be wrong. But I have done all the parenting courses and I used to work with send children. My priority is always deescalation and then appropriate consequence.

I question myself because of this. I don’t expect him to be able to stay as calm as I do. I don’t expect him to be perfect (I’m not!). Sometimes I think well what do I expect, and is this worth breaking up the family over.

But then I look at my boys and I think no, no this isn’t ok. I just want them to know love and calm. I don’t want them to see anger in their home.

I have noticed my eldest son’s behaviour is better when his dad is not there. I don’t know if it’s because I’m less tense or because he is less tense. If it’s because he is less tense then my mind would be made up.

It is horrendous to have to decide whether to break up what is usually a happy family. I can’t even imagine it. But I don’t think this can carry on. I am so worried about the impact on our boys.

I have told him I want some space and for him to stay at his mums. He has accepted this and he has apologised and has said that he knows he is wrong and he wishes he could manage his anger better in the moment. But he says this and then it happens again.

I think you have the right ideas and you should not always take up people here who jump to conclusions.

Dealing with such children is always hard, not every class addresses an individual matter so you will hear some say even your soft approach is enabling him.

You are best to work with your partner for what methods work for your own individual case.

OrdinaryGirl · 12/12/2025 13:39

Sorry you’re in this situation OP, it sounds really tough. 💐
Conscious of wanting to tread carefully here…I feel as though if this thread were written from the husband’s perspective, and the husband were a woman, there would be quite a lot of understanding.

I have shouted at my kids when frazzled and overwhelmed and sleep-deprived and stressed. And I mean REALLY shouted. I have stopped the car fairly crisply when their behaviour as passengers has very occasionally tipped into being dangerous.

I don’t feel comfortable about the husband’s behaviour here being immediately tagged by others as abusive and worthy of divorcing.

Obviously the OP needs to trust her instincts and do what feels like the right thing for her and her family. Also I would say that this could well be a really decent guy who is struggling and at the end of his tether, feeling hopeless that anything will improve things.

Clearly something needs to change and everyone needs some support. Assuming the husband is a generally decent chap, and there is not lots more to this story, I am willing to bet he feels dreadful and guilty and trapped and ashamed that he has not showed up for his family in the way he wants to.

Perhaps a conversation with him about how his behaviour is bad enough for you to consider breaking up the family, and how that’s not what you want, but things need to get better and you need to see tangible action and change?

I don’t really have anything useful to add other than to say I am sorry it is so very difficult OP, and that I hope you have got some good signposts here towards support IRL. Wishing you all the best.

YorkshireGoldDrinker · 12/12/2025 13:44

Not knowing how to deescalate a situation doesn't mean the dad is abusive, nor is it a reason to leave him. The responses on here are such misandrist drivel.

Divorcing your husband, wrecking a marriage and family destruction is the answer to an autistc child being unable to control their emotions, is it?

And if you actually divorce him? Then what? Are your kids going to hate your new husband (assuming you remarry)? Is your son going to blame himself for his parents splitting up?

Just parent your children.

Ophy83 · 12/12/2025 13:50

Sounds like solutions are needed for both of them

DH needs to figure out how to keep control of his own emotions. He's the adult. Could he also be autistic?

DS needs to know that his behaviour is unacceptable and dangerous. I agree with others that he can't sit behind the driver until you can trust him not to kick out

Maddyisqueen · 12/12/2025 13:56

VeryOriginalUsername1 · 12/12/2025 09:23

I don’t know what to do. I have been married for 12 years. We have 2 boys. Our eldest is 7. He is autistic. Our youngest is 3.

My husband cannot manage his behaviour. I have begged him to access some parenting advice as I have so that we can be consistent. He says he can’t, he would not understand.

A lot of the time things are fine and we are a happy family. But then something will happen. This morning my eldest son was taking something that is special to him into school. He dropped it in the car and in anger kicked my husbands seat. My husband was driving.

This has happened to me before. I pull over, explain how unsafe it is for me to drive like that, wait for him to calm down, and then carry on.

My husband flipped. He did an emergency stop on the car, both boys cried. He screamed at our eldest son. He carried on driving and then did an emergency stop again because our eldest son kicked again. I banged my head on part of the car and the boys cried even more. I was trying to stay calm and diffuse everything. We got to school and my husband was still shouting. Another mum who I know was looking at me as if to see if things were ok.

When I took my eldest son into school he told me that his dad had shook his (my sons) leg. I asked my husband about this and he said he did, to stop him because he was about to kick again.

This kind of thing is happening more frequently. I’d say maybe one a fortnight or once a month I’m not sure.

What do I do. My children love their dad and he loves them. We have a happy family life usually. But I feel like I’m on eggshells and knowing my son has gone into school after all that has broken my heart.

Is this just normal and to be expected, am I expecting too much of my husband in terms of managing our son’s behaviour? He thinks I am. I just don’t know anymore.

So you are together with your husband - it’s not child maintenance then surely

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