Married to someone with Asperger’s/ASD/ND: support thread 17

[SpecialMangeTout3]

New thread.
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This thread is for those of us seeking to explore the dynamics of long term relationships with our ND partners. Some of us are ND ourselves, very many of us have ND children. It is a support thread, and a safe space, it does get emotional at times. Avoid sweeping generalisations if possible, try and keep it specific to you and your partner.
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It's complicated and it's emotional.
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The old thread is here.
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/relationships/5355546-married-to-someone-with-aspergersasdnd-support-thread-16?page=10&reply=148665446

My ex was certainly an asshole. Was it is autism that made him like that? To a degree yes, I do believe it was. The rigid thinking. The insistence that he was right. The low frustration tolerance. The emotional dysregulation. The strong sense of shame which I now realise governed his every behaviour. The lack of social awareness. His innate need to think of his own needs (and really have very little sense of others’ emotional needs). His self focus. His dismissal of others’ points of view.

But he could have learnt to be a better person. He could have learnt to be curious about my experience. He could have learnt to give people the benefit of the doubt. He could have learnt not to jump to (incorrect) assumptions about people’s behaviour and motivations by taking time out, listening, asking questions instead of reacting. He could have learnt that firing off an apology after the fact is not reparation.

But he didn’t. And instead he went and found someone else. And I’m sure she is very much enjoying the new relationship phase where he gets to be in his element, whisking her off to places, paying her compliments, laughing, carrying her bags, arranging things just the way she likes, being very physical…. She has no idea what is to come. And he has learnt nothing from our time together and despite his awful treatment of me, he is now the one telling me he chose her over me because “she makes him feel safe!” Hmmm what he means is she doesn’t challenge or question his behaviour. She doesn’t make him face uncomfortable truths. I did. And instead of learning, he got angry or he withdrew. Eventually he withdrew and had an affair.

And yet I miss him! Ugh!!!

Anyway , sorry that wasn’t what you asked. Yes of course autistic people can be assholes. And who cares why they’re an asshole. They’re still an asshole.

@Theydontwantme the way I look at it, to take your example of mobility issues, someone who is disabled, eg in a wheelchair, can be an awful person or someone genuinely wonderful. Having a disability doesn’t make someine either nice or awful. That’s including ND.

Now take 2 people with a similar level of mobility issues. They both walk very slowly. One just cross the road like this, the other uses a rollator to get around.
I can tell you, by experience, the first person is likely to get huffing and puffing, lots of grumbles (someone even used their horn) because clearly that person is inconsiderate, should go faster rather than taking their time. A lot of people would say theyre a twat.
Yet the second person with the rollator will not get that. Because most people recognise that, when people are disabled, they are. They can’t help it. And they can’t go quicker. Yet they could be an inconsiderate twat that has decided to take all their time, holding the traffic as a result.
Same should happen with ND imo. Once you know the person is ND, the first reaction should be ‘ND reaction’ and then wondering if actually theyre not just awful.

Then, staying with mobility issues, you can have 2 people with MS. One is struggling to walk more than room to room. The other is going up and down stairs and can walk quite a while. Would you say the lerson who doesn’t go further than room to room is taking their time piss abd should just kearn to walk for longer oerson? Or would you say that not everyone with MS is affected the same way? I’m pretty you’d say the second tbh.
And same with ND. Saying ‘they should just learn’ is just as impossible for some people than asking someone with MS to walk more. It’s part of their disability. It’s not going to change. Even if SOME people can learn or aren’t affected that way.bits NOT an excuse. Never has been. It can be a very good reason.

And both, having a go at someone becayse of their disability (you’re too slow) or assuming that disabled people should just ‘get over their disability’ (and learn how to do xyz) is very close to being ableist.

Now the big difficulty with ND and the lack of care etc…. is that, from the outside, whether it’s disability or being an awful person is very hard to separate. Sometimes, it migut be some of both. A lot of it is down to intend.
Thats why I feel the most important is about you, your needs and you can or can’t cope with said behaviour. Not the intend.
But the first step imo should be ‘Here is the REASON for their behaviour. It’s the ND’. Then assess and check it’s not being an arsehole.

I am only talking about the ND in relation to relationships. Obviously ND folks like myself exist very well outside of relationships, work etc. Within the confines of a relationship my ND mum is of no use whatsoever. Outside of this she is a fantastic worker, great, even amazing at many other things. None of those things I need from her. I want relationship things from her and she can’t any of that. Inside intimate relationships she is an asshole, arrogant, controlling and no empathy. She is a fantastic manager but a shit mum. Relationships aren’t her thing, unfortunately I had no say in that. I think it’s ok to say that someone’s thinking makes them shit for relationships.

I would absolutely pay my mum to manage and arrange things. But in a relationship there needs to be other things.

This got me thinking about gender roles and ASD. Whether women with ASD are more likely than men learn to adapt to do the 'right thing' by others emotionally given the roles we tend to get bought up with. That would certainly track with a lot of what's said about the experiences of women on the spectrum, re: masking, learning behaviours by observing when they don't come naturally. And sometimes burning out doing it.

Women are most definitely expected to be a certain way and men get away with a lot of that behaviour in my opinion. I feel that’s why my mum in my opinion feels really off to me. She does not mask and isn’t maternal or warm and loving, it’s more noticeable.
Wheras last week my brother got off in my opinion ruining his daughter’s birthday. She wanted to go somewhere where he said the the potato’s weren’t consistent enough so he refused to go. He’s the man so he is in charge.

I have read that a lot of ND people hate to be perceived. I get it, I have been labeled sensitive and dramatic, even though this comes from a place of dysregulation. I can understand from the outside this just look different and in terms of my relationship I have to do a lot of work to make sure I don't hurt people with my emotions.

If someone focuses on their special interest and neglects the relationship or they get mad and dysregulated or they make no effort or offer no empathy are they not right to be perceived a certain way? It says that true selfishness is conscious choice. But is it still selfish to behave this way despite it being due to differences. I mean I understand that acting this way has no intentions, a lot of the time they are unaware of the consequences on the other person. How can you get around this? I am struggling to understand how a person doesn’t know how their behaviour affects others. Saying you love someone but focusing all your time on something else obviously doesn’t align. That person will miss your company.

You know what I need. Some tips on how to process this feeling I have that I’m a bitch that I don’t like my mum or brother despite the fact that it’s a disability. If they were people in the street I’d just never meet them, it would mean nothing, we’d not be friends. I am trying desperately to understand and accept and take on board the disability.

My partner yes has ASD, but he is likable. He has a special interest and he talks my ear off but he shares his interest. He goes to groups and it’s opened his life and ours, it’s a sociable interest with great people. He invites people into his world and he does show up to everyone else. I think it’s the fact it’s a disability and they don’t intend it and they never asked for it that makes me feel a right bitch. But they still self centred and one way.

If there's one thing I learned in life, it's that if a feeling of affection/love towards someone that you'd expect to be there is actually missing, it's because they did not inspire it.

If you can like/love other people in your life (and be liked/loved) then it's extremely unlikely to be -you- that's the problem.

If someone elicits feelings in you, it's usually for good reason. If they don't, that's also for a good reason (usually).

We tend to give back what we're given, emotionally.

That makes sense. I think I’ve fallen into a trap of wanting those feelings and trying to figure out a way of getting them, because it’s painful to not love your own mum, and not really right. But I do love others and I’m loved by others. It’s usually those who mirror how I feel and see me that I feel safe with. Not being mirrored and being dismissed is very upsetting for me. I think you are right that you can’t make something exist that doesn’t and there is a reason why it doesn’t (although it’s sad and sad it’s due to a ND).

You know what I need. Some tips on how to process this feeling I have that I’m a bitch that I don’t like my mum or brother despite the fact that it’s a disability.

@Theydontwantme please know that you are NOT a bitch or an awful person because you don’t like or love your mum (or brother).
Whether it’s coming from a disability or not, you have been badly hurt when you were a child. You’re still being hurt now, in part because you want something your mum can’t give you - some warmth and feeling seen. It’s all very normal and doesn’t make you a bad person. As @ReleaseTheDucksOfWar said, it’s pretty normal to not being keen on someone who does nothing to be loved.

Fwiw one reason I’m so ‘keen’ (for want of a better word) to take ND into account is because it gives a REASON to the behaviour. And for me, that removes the shame aspect. It means your mum did what she could. It wasn’t enough for you. It’s very sad but no one ends up a bad person.
I found that when shame is around, I start finger pointing and telling myself it’s ‘xyz fault’ then I end up feeling awful myself. Because if it’s not xyz fault then it has to be me right? It has to be me who is an awful person.
Whereas the reality, it’s likely no one is. (Assuming the person isn’t mean etc etc). It’s sad. It’s hard to accept you’ll never get the relationship you want/need with your mum. But it just IS.

fwiw you migut find reading around emotionally immature parents helpful. I found ‘Children of emotionally immature parents’ a helpful book. It’s not about ASD or ND but in some ways it doesn’t matter because it’s about what you, as a child,have been missing. Maybe you’ll find it helpful too.

It is what it is I suppose. We are both affected by it even if my brother has no idea. He is a ticking time bomb. His OCD and perfectionism and inability to stop is seeing him work more and more and neglect his family something terrible. Yet my mum encourages him to work 16hrs a day and most weekends. Other people are starting to notice but he can’t stop. She just smiles and says it’s what you do, doesn’t tell him to think of his wife and kids or anyone else in the family. It may well explain it but the deficiencies are huge. She lives in a different world.

Yes the deficiencies are huge. That’s why, despite what some autism activists say, it is a disability. And one that isn’t easy or even sometimes possible to ‘overcome’ (if you can ever overcome a disability).

Weve talked earlier (this thread? The previous one?) about the impact on children of having autistic parents.
imo it can be really hard on the children, but it’s something rarely talked about or even acknowledged. Because how do you say ‘here is this person who, from the outside, is totally competent, has a job etc… but they really aren’t suitable to be a parent’? 😢😢

I wonder if younger generations of autistic people may opt not to have kids. Perhaps they won’t feel the societal force of marriage and 2.4 children in the same way. It’s much more acceptable now not to take that route. I wonder if parents who really weren’t parent material would have taken that step if they hadn’t felt that was what was expected of them, needing to be “normal” to be accepted. Does a strong drive to have children exist alongside the need for control of self and surroundings? Perhaps greater awareness of self might lead this way. Although the same could be said for many NT people, I have a friend who became pregnant relatively young and we were all dubious as she struggled to keep a hamster alive and it was the absolute making of her having kids. 🤷🏻‍♀️. Sorry not sure I’ve expressed that very well.

I don’t know. I know some amazing autistic parents tho and I’m trying hard myself with my own children. I think my mum was just one of the older generations who has been unnoticed and she has got through life how she can. It is a hard subject to talk about. I hate to say it’s a disability because for many it’s just a different way of looking at things. But it feels like a paralysed person raising a child who can walk and telling the walking child that she is wrong to walk. The shame I have felt for myself for being me because I wasn’t able to think or behave like her and believing I was wrong. Thank god there is much more awareness now for young children so they can grow and learn.

What I think really gets me and what I can’t get passed when we have contact…she is really happy. I have suffered and suffered and she is happy. She has the relationships she can control, so she has what she needs. When we meet she will be happy and talk about herself and these other strangers. She can’t approach my world and if I mention any struggle she will freeze. I don’t know if this is a normal feeling to have but her happiness really upsets me. I’m not like this about anyone else in my life. How can a mother be happy when their child hasn’t been. Autism explain this? Are people’s partners actively happy when you are really not?

It sounds like your mother is happy as long as she remains within her bubble, hence freezing when you mention your own distress. The desire to not feel discomfort can make people do very weird things. Ignoring someone else unhappiness is quite easy really especially if it makes you feel safe. Her emotional world begins and ends with her and life has taught her that that is how she remains safe. You have learnt differently and are trying to make a world where your children get connection. Her behaviour is no reflection on you. Refusing to see your distress may be because to admit to your distress would be more than she can cope with. So it is safer and easier to stay in her bubble.

This really just sums it up. From the outside this is crazy making. Reminds me of Gelinda in her bubble in Wicked. It is sad for all around her. She came from a very connected family, all in each others houses. She has unintentionally broken the family chain and created disconnection. I am trying to re-connect with what little energy I have left with my own family. All my kids are ND but we can still all be together (apart together) lol.

Doesn’t everyone feel uncomfortable with other people’s emotions? The bubble you suggested sounds like a response to trauma.

There’s a strong chance her emotions were ignored or punished as a child, so emotions are bad so yes it could be a trauma response. I’m NT and I don’t always find other people’s emotion distressing, I can, too much anger scares me, too many tears make me cry in empathy, usually not wanting someone else to suffer grief or pain that I can’t stop. Crying for someone else for me isn’t distressing, being scared yes that is, but I think that’s a more universal response as a human/personal safety mechanism. In fact I have occasionally watched a documentary that I found distressing or cause me discomfort ie. cults/abuse because I feel I should bear witness to what that person has gone through and acknowledge their bravery in shouting it out to the world and holding a light to the bad shit that goes on. I’m aware that sounds a bit grandiose as I also honestly find the topics fascinating, but that’s kinda how I feel about some of them.

I am also ND, only diagnosed with one but I strongly suspect AuDHD. I find other people’s emotions distressing because I take them on as my own. I can’t find the line between theirs and mine and struggle to regulate. Could be a response from my childhood. But instead of switching off I switch on and end up getting a little hurt by emotions (but I would prefer this). I suppose we all have a different response to emotions and different trauma responses. I never want to hurt or dismiss and tend to go OTT neglecting myself. I do not want to repeat my upbringing. I have no idea of my mums upbringing but I can only assume back then she wasn’t given what she needed and the get on with it attitude turned her cold and selfish.

I think, perhaps, assuming she doesn’t have much control over her responses now your mum’s trained response isn’t so much selfish as self preservation. Emotions cause distress end off. Not receiving or giving emotions is safe. She cannot understand a way that doesn’t involve this behaviour and may no longer have the ability to accept/comprehend that her lack of emotion causes you harm, because to her mind any received emotion is negative and causes harm, be it a positive or negative. She was possibly taught that expressing herself in an emotional way other than being a happy child was a negative thing. I know this doesn’t make the hurt she causes you any less but perhaps if you can see it as unintentional (I’m aware I’m making some big generalisations here and can’t be sure) then it might take the sting out of it and give you a little more peace.

@SpecialMangeTout3 - about the need to take ND into account because it shows a person's behaviour is not your fault is an interesting one. I've mentioned feeling some frustration about the way DH is now saying to the kids a lot 'C'mon I've got a lot better' and seeming like he wants them to be grateful for the changes now he's on medication for the ADHD as a sort of minimiser of the times he's been less great since, and I think I need to talk to him about that in those terms. What the kids need to know and feel isn't 'It was just the ADHD, don't blame me' and more 'The outbursts weren't your fault', only I think DH still does think of them as being a bit the kids' fault at least some of the time.

I think the medicine helps slow down the response and reactions. But I don’t think it has any effect on how the world is viewed. So yeah it sounds like he isn’t reacting as quickly to things and so intensely but he still views the world from himself and not others. I don’t think is medically possible. It is him. He needs to understand that the way he views the world is different and it affects the relationships he has. This is where all of the ND relationships in my life have failed. Because they could never see anything through another’s eyes to effect any change.

My 3.5 year old is on the list for potential autism in the nursery. I find it interesting to watch her. She has lots of empathy for animals and garden ornaments. But people are a different matter. She has relationships only with adults. She had a bike this morning, it wasn’t hers but it didn’t matter to her at all that the other child was crying to have it. She snatched it off her because “I was going to take it over there”. Absolutely no consideration of the rules or who owns what, then she shouted I hate you and got mad because she couldn’t do what she wanted. She does nothing you ask and simply says because I don’t want to. I wonder if this is where it all starts with the masking. She has learned if she is cute and cuddly other adults do as she wants. Underneath masked asd adults are there just people who want to do what they want and things like other people and their emotions etc get in the way?

Hello all - just catching up with the chat. It’s been a stressful few weeks and lots going on. House move, redundancies, his divorce ( only just going through after 10 years of separation ) so needless to say we have unraveled. I am broken and can’t do this anymore. He has called me a few choice names over the last few weeks, negative, toxic and now cruel. All because he has to be right all the time… I feel I am loosing the plot. He saw me crying last night and all he could say was do you want dinner and why are you sitting there - I was hiding in the en suite. I said no dinner thanks and he just looked at me so puzzled and walked off. I know I am far from perfect but dear god…. It came to a head as he is doing a favour for a family member all day, the day before we move, which will mean him being out of the house all day. Leaving me on my own. He doesn’t get why I am unhappy about that as it doesn’t affect me. And I should be more like him and let things go. 😤 I just need to get through the next few weeks and plan my next move. I can’t live like this anymore- I’ve tried and failed. Xx