Married to someone with Asperger’s/ASD/ND: support thread 17

[SpecialMangeTout3]

New thread.
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This thread is for those of us seeking to explore the dynamics of long term relationships with our ND partners. Some of us are ND ourselves, very many of us have ND children. It is a support thread, and a safe space, it does get emotional at times. Avoid sweeping generalisations if possible, try and keep it specific to you and your partner.
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It's complicated and it's emotional.
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The old thread is here.
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/relationships/5355546-married-to-someone-with-aspergersasdnd-support-thread-16?page=10&reply=148665446

yeah we do talk about all sorts. I just don’t know how to have a relationship that’s meaningful like this. I can’t make my brain connect over what we talk about, about not being responded to and being left alone during all the times I don’t want to be. How can you force yourself to connect to someone that will abandon you when you need them the most and has caused you trauma and pain. I was a child through all the abandonment, it’s really challenging for me not to hate her, ASD or not tbh.

I hope it's ok to post here, I've been a lurker for a long time. I just wanted to address @Theydontwantme as some of the issues around your mum resonate with me. My own mum was similar when I was growing up in terms of not being able to deal with emotions, especially negative ones - she'd simply just shut down. Or get angry that I even wanted to talk about a difficult subject with her. It caused me to become incredibly withdrawn as a child and I learned to bury my emotions so as not to feel like a burden. I'm only now unlearning these behaviours in my 30s.

I strongly suspect my mum is ND but she also almost certainly has CPTSD from an abusive and emotionally neglectful upbringing - her own mother was monstrous which I only found out as an adult. I think this is at the core of her inability to deal with emotions and understanding that has really helped me process my own trauma and see her behaviour through a different lens. She just couldn't go there and shut down as a coping/survival mechanism she had to develop in childhood. She showed love in other ways, sometimes misguided, but she was traumatised as well as possibly being autistic. It allowed me accept that she wasn't able to be the mum I needed but that it wasn't my fault or my job to 'fix' her. It also allowed me to feel empathy for her as a complex, multifaceted human, and not just think of her as a mum.

A life without emotion would literally kill me

I've quoted what you said and I wonder if it would be helpful to reframe this from your mum's perspective; what if she feels like a life full of emotions would kill her? Because it triggers past trauma that's just too painful to bear. Or if she is autistic, because deep emotional connection is actually incredibly overwhelming and not something she's wired for. You compare yourself to her quite a lot and think because you have ADHD and she might be autistic that you should be similar but that just isn't the case. As mad is it seems, your (perfectly normal) need for meaningful connections and support in hard times will be as alien to your mum as her total avoidance is to you. None of this negates your own pain at all but perhaps it might give you an understanding that it's not anything you have done to make her behave this way, and allow you to accept that she will never be able to give you what you need. Ultimately, if the relationship is causing you distress then you need to go NC or at the very least stop reaching out for to her for support hoping it'll be different.

A mother wound is so profound but if you have people in your life you fill you up and 'get' you, put your energy into those relationships. I'd also really recommend EDMR as a way of working through your trauma. Talking therapy and CBT aren't always effective if you're ND and you seem to be stuck in a perpetual loop of rumination.

You don't have to have any contact with her if you don't want to. It's devastating to give up on something you once had so much hope for, I'm sure, but if all it brings you is pain and you can't find any joy or meaning in a different kind of interaction it may just be that it's not meant to be.

It’s kind of how it feels like it’s going really. What joy is a mum who abandons you when you need her. When you have your babies and she disappears away. When you struggle and you reach out and get dismissed. My sibling also suffers. He is an overworked who can’t stop 24/7, an utter perfectionist who can’t rest for 5 mins, I’m sure he’s going to burn himself out. I’ve developed conditions from what I believe is the neglect. I don’t think I can get past it and sit and talk happily with her while she remains oblivious to the consequence of her behaviour on us. If she showed love in other ways maybe it would be better but she doesn’t do anything.

Why didn’t she do something about her feelings or lack of before bringing children into the world. I know she struggled as a girl with school and friends and people. It wasn’t fair to inflict trauma onto her children, me and my sibling have our own issues to deal with because of her. My sibling is carrying this over to his kids as he doesn’t do emotions, he over works, a perfectionist, he gets angry and it’s all about him and what he wants within the family.

She was quite possibly totally unaware that anything was wrong or else she thought having children would change her. She maybe thought the feelings would come with the children and grow over time? I don't know, I can only speculate. Whatever the truth is, she can't give you what you need and her behaviour has caused damage, even if it might not be her fault due to disability. You can only decide what's best for you now. Do you think she would be emotionally affected if you ended the relationship and went totally NC?

I doubt it, she has my sibling. My sibling is much more attached then me in the sense I think he is desperate for her attention, he tries so hard to get it. I think she’d just think and tell everyone I have a problem and something is wrong with me. She’s always classed me as being too needy. It’s quite sad really, I can’t imagine making my children feel too needy. My eldest is ADHD and my youngest definitely showing signs of ASD. I could never just let them go through life alone because it’s too hard for me. I guess ASD and ADHD and trauma presents so differently.
I have done some reading on empathy and how different levels can causes psychopaths and sociopaths and personality disorders etc. I read about empathy mirroring. It made a lot of sense. When I empathise I share the persons emotions, they affect me physically whereas others only have sympathy where the emotion isn’t shared so very little done to support. I can imagine life with different levels of empathy be challenging because you don’t share someone’s feeling. I could be in hospital and my mum would go on holiday. The other way around and I’d be a wreck.

@500daysofspring I’m pretty sure too that my mum has some form of cptsd too and her issues with closeness, emotional maturity etc… are stemming from that.

It’s hard isn’t it? Similar behaviours from the outside can really come from so many different origins, some of which simply cannot be ‘solved’ as such.

If she’s the same age as my parents (late 50s/early 60s) then things like ND and childhood trauma just weren’t talked about openly or really understood, much less therapy. For my parents in the late 80s you got married and had children without thinking too much about it - it was a social convention and that’s just what you did.

Exactly @SpecialMangeTout3. It doesn’t make it any less painful but understanding that my mum’s behaviours were likely a trauma response or linked to being ND and not because she didn’t like me and wanted to hurt me was a revelation. Realising I wasn’t the problem or the solution was incredibly freeing.

I don’t feel at all like the problem anymore. I’ve shown up for my own kids despite the complete lack of empathy from my mum. She is most definitely in my opinion the problem, but she isn’t going to change. I suspect she’s had trouble in relationships all her life and I think she is a heavy masker. But she has kind
of got it down well and it works to her favour. I am the issue asking what I’m asking for. Anyone else asking for what I’m asking for has long since gone, it’s just we are connected in such a way. She doesn’t have girl friends or ever have a best friend. She has my dad but they aren’t connected emotionally and other friends etc but they are not emotional relationships, they do activities and that’s it. I have the issue because we are “supposed” to have a certain bond. I have expected too much from the mum title she has

Do you think emotionally avoidant people actually love you? Mine only praises emotional independence. I am starting to come to understand that she is definitely traumatised in some way and her avoidance isn’t a me problem at all. I am very thankful to people on here that are clearing this up.

I think their love is very skewed.

I suppose love means different things to different people. To me, someone with avoidant personality praising independence sounds more like a safety mechanism/way to avoid the fear of someone being dependent on them, than saying they don't love you. More like mitigating against fear of letting you down if you depend on them?

But I don't see dependence as part of love, which is why I think it depends how you define love

I read that it’s a fear that those who are dependent on you will take away your autonomy. So it’s not for the other persons fear it’s for their own fear. I find that incredibly selfish. Children should always have a dependence on their parents, they should always be a safe place. Partners should always have a safe space to go to in their partners. All relationships are interdependent isn’t that the basis of love? Avoidant people sound incredibly controlling.

Could it be an ASD behaviour to interpret your child’s natural need to depend as a threat?

How is this just possible that I am triggered by the opposite thing. She is triggered by dependency and intimacy and I am triggered by being dismissed and pushed to be completely Independent?! Neither of us can exist in the same space happily as one of us is going to be triggered. It’s actually quite sad. I guess it’s lucky for my kids I am not like this. Trauma is a bitch if it’s left unchecked.

Do you think she feels sad that she can’t attach to anyone emotionally or do they really think it’s disgusting and unsafe?

DH had an interview today that he thinks went well and might be a green light but now he's fretting because the agent he got it through is on holiday and he hasn't been able to speak to either person who is allegedly deputising for him. I'm trying to gently find a way to say he should maybe calm down a bit, it feels like he's phoning them every 5 minutes. I guess he's scared that somehow he'll lose this chance if the employer can't get hold of the agent, which I'm sure wouldn't happen.

DS in the meantime has got his first tests results, maths, and it's not good disappointingly. Maths has historically been OK, but I think he's struggling having been moved to top set and we need to move him back to second set. He says he finds the pace of set 1 too fast. Now worried that the results for his other subjects are going to be poor as well, as was really hoping this set would show the effects of revision, which he did do, we saw him do it. If he is still barely scraping a pass mark even with revision I don't know what to do.

To both their credits, DS did tell DH the result himself and DH took it calmly.

Such a mixed bag of emotions there @Echobelly

It’s great that your dh took the not as good as planned results well.
But your issues with revisions is still there isn’t it? 😢
How is your ds doing with counselling?

And 🤞🤞 for the job!

DS counselling starts tomorrow - now DH is back from the gym we're going to talk to DS about it and remind him he can talk to the therapist about anything, including, perhaps especially, things he doesn't want to talk to us about because that will just be between the two of them.

I think I need to tell DH, I've realised, that a big reason we can't have productive conversations about DS is because when it comes to test results, my whole focus and anxiety ends up being about DH's reaction. It's like if they're good my brain goes 'OK, this is an improvement, maybe DH won't be in a rage' (although it's no guarantee because he's very bad at understanding what acceptable/good looks like for DS). It doesn't help.

TBH I am worried about DS's results now... I thought they'd be good enough to progress to higher study, but now I'm worried her might not even make that threshold. I know he has to stay in education or training anyway, and that he can retake subjects in Y12 if necessary. I'm wondering if we need an honest conversation - DH goes off the rail and starts going on about 'failing' and terrible effects on the rest of his life which is a) unhelpful, and b) we don't know that will happen. But maybe what we can say honestly is that unless things can be turned around, he may have to retake maths and English in Y12 in order to progress. And TBH for me that may be no bad thing - given how young he is in the year plus the ADHD, it could be a good thing for him to retake them if he can't make it on the first go because he might have caught up a bit by then.

@Echobelly fingers crossed on the job front. Be sure to emphasis to DS that yes give it your best shot, but you can take any of your exams at any time. He can do stuff at college, he could apply to the OU. There is lots he can do he can do an apprenticeship and work towards GCSE’s. But you can do them as a private candidate whenever you just need to find an exam Center and be prepared to pay, there is no age cut off. Not achieving them at 16 is not the end of the world, it’s just a hiccup and can be overcome, he may well find them easier as he matures. What does he want to do (assuming he has any idea!), focus on the important GCSE’s for that and let him ease off the less important ones.

Wise as ever @Pashazade - he should manage a good marks for drama and science if nothing else.

I was wondering if I should pull him out of summer camp to do an English/Maths revision course over summer (not as a punishment, but as support) but looks like I'm saved that dilemma as there only seem to be short courses - I sort of assumed their might be 3 or 4 week courses, but most seem to be 5 days max as I guess most people want to go away in the summer and there wouldn't be demand for anything that long.

I think I need to get through to DH we need to focus on a realistic target, which may just be getting enough to get to A level/level 3 BTechs, maybe having to retake English and maybe Maths.

Thank you for listening to me wibble, I feel like a broken record this is not 'me' at all - if it were up to me, I'd get him some tutoring, generally scaffold his revision, see what happens and take it from there. But I can't because of DH.

Regarding job, DH does have the contact details of the interviewer, so if he can't get assurance someone at the agency is on the case tomorrow morning, he will just email him to say how enthusiastic he was about the role and that his agent is on holiday, so to let him know if he can't get hold of anyone at the agency. That should at least set his mind at rest!

@Echobelly I Home Ed, so spend an inordinate amount of time worrying that I’m/we’re getting it right for DS. His school year are due to be taking GCSE’s next year, I will be ecstatic if he makes it into an exam hall as I can see him freaking out, but he’ll be another year older and he has matured massively so I’m not panicking (well not often) and acknowledging that he can do what he needs in his own time and I am not going to bow to society’s need for children to jump through the hoops of exams at certain ages.

I was doing some more reading about it and I think maybe I need to get over to DH that it's not just 'one shot and that's it' and maybe DS will need to do things a bit later. The system is set up so that there will always be options until at least 18.

Re GCSE results
Just a little story for you.
dc2 is doing engineering in a good university. GooD results at GCSE etc…BThe sort of ‘normal route’ you imagine a student to do iyswim.
A good friend of mine was very worried about her ds. Failed his GCSE. Had to redo maths and English (English twice if I remember well). He went to college, did an access course and … went to do engineering at the exact same Uni as dc2. Graduated no issue at all etc… It took him 2 years more than others will it ever make a hige difference in his life? Nope.

Choices are there.
Some children ‘mature’ and are ready for their GCSE, A levels etc… later. Some need more time (like another friend’s ds who is on the spectrum).
It doesn’t mean all doors are closed. There are many ways to get to Uni, train and get a good job that doesn’t involved amazing GCSE levels.
I really feel it’s more important to keep their self belief intact. That they CAN do stuff. That there are options. And it’s not less valuable as the ‘normal’ curriculum. Just a different way.

Thank you, that will be useful to tell DH! A lot of the time it's just the 'unknown' bits that get to him and with evidence he will actually calm down.

Like I said, I want to avoid any sense of 'Your life is over if you can't get GCSEs' and maybe put it as 'worst case scenario' is retakes and doing things a bit later, which maybe if he can avoid he will make efforts to, but even if those efforts aren't enough, there are options.

Do you think that there are parents (especially those in there 60/70s) who have felt so shameful of themselves that they hide their children’s issues for fear of being exposed themselves. Both myself and my sibling absolutely are ND. My brother can’t stop working and hoarding. They have covered this all up and pushed us into directions that have made our life worse. My parents encouraged my brother to keep his head down and work work work, I’m told to be quiet and just carry on. These are actually not acknowledging our nervous systems and make us worse. My brother is a terrible perfectionist and so have I been, I’m sure he will burn out from the pressure of being perfect. You could say that they have done their best given the situation they have been in, but we know better now. Back in the day hiding was the only way to survive.