DP hates children

[conflicted84]

Repost, with full text this time.

I (male, 41) have been with my OH (female, 37) for over 7 years now.

Early on she made it very clear she didn't want children and that was OK with me as I felt I was too old to be a good father, had taken a long time to get established in my career, and did not have much of a paternal instinct, but was very happy to be an uncle to my nephews/nieces. Otherwise we were on the same wavelength and got on well, and still do for the most part.

My sister on the other hand has young children who are adored by all the family, and this has become a massive source of tension in our relationship, getting worse year by year, to the point I'm not sure where things go.

When OH and I first got together it was not long prior to the pandemic and sister only had 1 child. Fast forward a few years and sister now has 2 more. DP and I had the experience of living together under very intense pandemic conditions while things were still pretty new for us. That seemed to go OK. Where things have gone wrong is the post-pandemic years where I've been trying to get her to engage more with my family. I'm talking maybe 3-4 events a year at most, think Christmastime and significant birthdays where immediate family + partners might be invited. Other smaller or ad-hoc get-togethers I would happily go to on my own, but it's important to me that we turn up together to "significant" family events and my family would probably ask concerned questions about the state of my relationship if I always turned up without her, as you can probably imagine.

Even this limited level of family engagement has been a struggle to put it mildly. At first it was at a fairly normal level of "slight unease around in-laws" which I assumed might be alleviated by better familiarity, but over the last couple of years in particular things have steadily got more and more tense to the point where I feel like I'm torn between my partner and my family.

DP's point of view seems to have shifted from "don't like children" to "actively despise them". Any time there is any kind of family event where children might be present I have to fight with her to get her to attend, and if she does attend then she spends the whole time sulking and pretty much refusing to speak to anyone. She is barely civil to my sister and brother in law, giving monosyllabic answers at best when they try to engage her in conversation, and looks through the children as though they do not even exist.

If I go without her she still finds a way to make passive-aggressive remarks about my family before and/or after the event, such as implying that I should just mail birthday presents rather than delivering them to my nephews/nieces in person (even though we live relatively close by and she knows I like seeing them) or making scoffing noises/rolling her eyes when I say I need to leave at X time to be there for such and such an event.

Even if we meet my parents without my nieces/nephews present she seems to try to find a way to start an argument, because she seems to resent my parents having a close relationship with their grandchildren. She also insinuates frequently that my parents somehow value me less than their grandchildren or that they give my sister more support than me - even though I've tried to explain repeatedly that this isn't the case and that it's quite normal for grandparents to dote on their grandchildren anyway.

This also gets echoed in my relationships with friends, most of whom now have children. She's still not met quite a few of my oldest friends and has turned down opportunities to meet them - if they have children she seems to pre-emptively write them off with sarcastic comments about how they've given up perfectly good careers, etc.

OH had an abusive childhood and I think a lot of this stems from the fact that she never knew "normal" family dynamics and never knew her own aunts/uncles/grandparents. She also seems to think that her mother (who was in an abusive marriage) ruined her own life and career by having children in the first place, and projects that onto other people who have children - hence frequent remarks at home about women "throwing away their lives", children in general being entitled, colleagues with children "skiving" when they are on holiday, and so on and so forth.

I think there is a lot of unresolved trauma here - almost as though she views herself as needing to avenge her mother - and a lot of fear or uncertainty on her part as to how to engage with family dynamics where children are involved. That said, she refuses to seek therapy - her view seems to be either that she knows better, or that nothing could help anyway. I try to support her as much as I can, and on a day to day basis it doesn't really factor into our interactions with one another as we have busy lives and don't have daily interactions with family. But it is getting to the point now where it is poisoning relations between me and my family whenever there's any sort of family event. We have had numerous arguments over the last few years where it feels like she is growing increasingly resentful of me wanting to have a relationship with my own nephews and nieces.

I don't want to split up with her. In private she is funny, clever, and incredibly supportive of me. But when it comes to meeting my family (or my friends) they are faced wtih indifference at best or even hostility, and that's beginning to spill into our private lives.

I'm at the end of my tether. After 7 years it feels like things should get easier, not more difficult. What do I do?

Well some posters have said it’s ’evil’, akin to racism, and that we need therapy or a psychiatrist… And lots of people have said that “everybody” on MN is a parent or trying to become one; or questioned why I and other posters are on MN. I’m trying to show it is not a solely parent place. Nobody, not even MN, can know the demographics as we don’t have to fill in a questionnaire before we can post!

OP’s question was whether his DP was wrong to dislike children. No, she isn’t. Whether she’s right for him is another question.

The thread has gone all over the place
MN is for everyone. I am a bit annoyed when MRAs pile on but I have to put up with it. Because it's for men too.

nobody has said it is evil to not love children or want to be around them but people have said it is not normal to have the urge to.want to.visit violence upon them just because they exist or that it is OK to look through them and basically despise them .
The 2 things are entirely different.

Thanks to all of you for commenting. Lots to think about here. Even from the terrifying child-haters who waded in. It's given me insight into another (very bleak) perspective, at least...

Anyway, I've been keeping track of her anti-child comments over the last few days and the frequency is really unsettling. Not sure if she's getting worse or if I'm just hyper-attuned to it now, but a couple of examples from recent days...

One was when we were reading a restaurant review in the Times at the weekend (we read food reviews together a lot). It described whichever area the restaurant was in as being the new hotspot in London for families to settle down. Her: "let's never move there then"

We also like to look at wildlife pictures/watch series together. One of these mentioned a theory that humans find animals with big eyes cute as an evolutionary adaptation because it reminds them of babies. Her: "well I'm clearly maladapted then because I think human babies are the most disgusting creatures on earth" (said with a tone of absolute contempt)

And the third was reading an obituary for the humorist Tom Lehrer, who pled "not guilty on both counts" when asked if he'd married or had children. She laughed uproariously at this in a really nasty way.

That's three unprovoked incidents alone from one weekend... this isn't normal, is it? Nobody AFAIK has been pressuring her about kids, my family certainly aren't, her mother isn't and I'm not.

I'm a very conflict averse person by nature but I really think I need to confront her about this. The trouble is that individually they're all blink-and-you-miss-it moments that I don't know how to react to, and they normally happen either late at night or when we're out in public - times or places that I wouldn't want to risk an argument or cause a scene. So picking a fight about it later feels really awkward.

My current plan is that I have more annual leave than her, so I'm planning to try to spend some time over the next couple of months seeing my family (in various configurations) without her, and see how she reacts. That should at least give me some clearer insight into whether it's genuinely controlling behaviour. Meanwhile I will start getting my ducks in a row, as people say on here.

Why confront her?

You know how she is. You know the isolation and distancing she expects from you. You know she won't change just because you want her to.

Why are you still there? Break up and meet someone nicer.

A single man, with no children, good career and good relationships with his family. You will be like gold dust in the dating arena.

Because we started building a life together. We own a home together (with a bloody big mortgage) and she will probably try to ruin me if we split. Because I have to believe that she's better than this.

I know, written down, it all sounds foolish and she won't change, and I'm in for a lonely life if I stay. But I'm terrified of the fallout and of being single again. Those of you who split up after a long term relationship, how did you manage it? Was there a specific incident or was it a steady drip feed of "I love you but I can't tolerate this specific thing any more"? And how did it go from there?

While I don't have or want children, I think it's very odd to talk about disliking them the way she does all the time. She comes across as such a negative, hateful person.

Replace it with any other subject - let's say ducks.
A review for a town describes a park with ducks - ugh, let's never move there.
A nature documentary mentions that ducks are good for the ecosystem of a lake - ugh, shoot them all.
An obituary for a birdwatcher says he liked all birds except ducks because they just don't interest him - haha...ha?

It's weird!

You can break up with her for any reason, and you don't need to tell her why. No point arguing over this, don't waste your energy - she's not the right person for you.

She sounds so tedious. Like an edgy teen. That shtick gets old after a while.

It reads like she's made this a huge part of her personality, which many people (usually young people though) do with things like obsessions, shock factor things or pop culture, and which can be especially off putting if you aren't in their "tribe" or on their wavelength.

In those cases it's quite an innocent thing but when it comes down to clashing so much with your own values on children then it doesn't seem conducive to a life long relationship tbh. If she disdains you for the time spent with family if children are present and refuses to be part of your family while you yourself enjoy being part of it, then how will that work in a healthy relationship?

So this is what I'm struggling with. While she's not exactly an optimist by nature, she's not hateful... except on this one specific issue. It's just so odd. I'm probably more of an optimist by nature, she's probably more of a pessimist, but together it works well except on this one, unprovoked thing that wasn't really an issue when we moved in together but is now causing major family problems. I've let it slide until now but it feels like she's deliberately pushing my boundaries.

Honest question, as I've never been here before (almost always the dumpee, not the dumper; and never when we've co-owned somewhere): how do you know when to cut your losses?

Honestly, when you start making threads on MN. Don’t be fooled by the sunk cost fallacy - you can walk away now and give yourself the chance of meeting someone you can be genuinely happy with, without this dark issue tainting family gatherings. The fact you don’t feel able to have an honest and open conversation about this speaks volumes too. It is not your responsibility to ‘fix’ her or resolve any unresolved trauma, this needs to come from her. It comes across like you are used to walking on egg shells, that you take responsibility for lessening the tension. Examine that.

It really doesn’t matter what other people have done. You need to decide for yourself what your limit / boundary is, and what you are prepared to tolerate for this relationship.

setting aside her obvious problems arising from past trauma, and whatever she thinks about children, the main problem for you (to my eyes) is that (1) she’s not making an effort (2) she’s not making an effort for you.

The first problem is a symptom of a single person in a relationship. You see it all the time - mostly, it has to be said, in men. They carry on as they were before they met their partners, and make no adjustments once the partner, whose interests happen to mainly match theirs such that life runs smoothly enough, enters their lives. If ever something happens to upset the cost/benefit ratio, they will leave rather than make an effort to compromise or at least go part way. Your girlfriend is actually going the other way, when she KNOWS it’s the opposite of what you want.

Which brings you to the second problem: a loving relationship based on respect and kindness is one in which you want the best for the other person. You want them to have everything their heart desires. You’ll support them and help them - and they will do the same for you. This is not what you’re getting. You’ve got someone who is actively and increasingly putting her wishes ahead of yours. She’s stopping you from having what you want.

Today, it’s children. Tomorrow, it could be something else. What if she’s not good with blood and gore? What if she can’t handle financial precariousness? What if she struggles with disability? Is she going to cut and run if any of those things befall you because she just “doesn’t do” those things?

This is not a relationship in which she loves and cherishes you, values you and supports you. It’s a relationship where she is setting out the terms on which she’s prepared to accept you in her life. That’s not a relationship. It’s a transaction.

As for her as a separate individual: I feel very sorry for her childhood and her peripatetic upbringing. But it’s utterly unforced le in a grown adult to not seek help when you know you need it, or know your partner needs you to get it, or (worse) have no insight into yourself. She’s an independent woman. She’s not a child for whom one might make allowances (oh the irony).

Imagine for a second that you replace children with any other person (remember children are people -human beings). Imagine "I absolutely hate black people" or "I hate the noises women make" and then rewrite this post.

You are prejudiced. Your prejudice is socially unacceptable and you should not feel that it is appropriate to voice it. You should be deeply ashamed of these feelings and seek therapy to address them. Just like any other sort of bigot.

You're right, and I think "transaction" sums all of this up actually. In recent months she's occasionally mentioned (when we're out in public with other people) doing additional qualifications "in case I have to relocate to [country of origin]". They've been very off hand and, being very English, I haven't wanted to make an issue in public, but these have left me wondering, "where do I feature in this"?

how do you know when to cut your losses?

When you realise that you are fundamentally mismatched on something crucial. Attitudes to money; to fidelity; to wanting/not wanting children…

And yes, as per PP, when you post about it on MN!

That's very sad. For you, because of what you're about to lose (sorry, but there's no point asking when you know the writing is on the wall - it's already there, you're just not ready to see it yet). Also for her, as she is a deeply damaged person who cannot make herself vulnerable enough to take another person into her life. When her mother goes, she will have nobody. She's missing out on so much. Terribly sad.

I think I know the writing is on the wall unless things change drastically (they won't). I'm here trying to persuade myself otherwise.

I think now the question is how I prepare myself. I'd rather rip the plaster off than wait for the inevitable, but it's a horrible prospect. I can see a therapist and work will pay for it, but it's still awful.

I think you need a solicitor first rather than a therapist. As you say you own a heavily mortgaged house together.

If you’re looking for advice, this PP nails it, OP. (edit: I was talking about @HiRen’s original post).

I’ll put it into perspective using my own experience. My DH never wanted kids. When we got together, we had ‘the talk’ but I think, young as we were back then, we both heard what we wanted to hear. I said I didn’t want kids right now as I liked my life and freedom and he fervently agreed. I likely never finished off with what I assumed was the obvious end of ‘but when I’m older, of course I do!’ Classic miscommunication.

By the time I realised that he didn’t want kids full stop, I was horribly in love with him. We’d been together for years. I spent much of my early to mid thirties wrestling with this. Didn’t feel it was fair to do the ultimatum scenario so I sat down and worked out for myself what I wanted more: a family in the future or him. He won. I wanted him exactly as he was and I didn’t want him to have kids just to make me happy, only if he really wanted them himself. I stayed and quietly shelved my vision of family life. We got cats and were happy.

In my late thirties, a chance disparaging comment from him in reference to a kid having a tantrum on a shop floor in a TV show led to him finding out that I hadn’t been against having kids forever, just not in my mid-twenties. As we talked, he was distraught at the thought that, without talking to him about it, my decision could have gone the other way and I would have left him. I told him I was happy with the choice I’d made but he definitely wasn’t happy at the thought I’d given something like that up.

He started looking into it. Invested in his relationships with his goddaughter, niece and nephews. Talked to friends about what family life was like. And decided there was room to grow.

We’re now expecting our little one in a couple of months - he’s changed immeasurably in the last six or seven years since that convo. So have I. He’s majorly looking forward to it (even if we both still freak out here and there about having her!). I love him and was willing to fully commit to life without kids, without making him feel responsible for it. He loves me and was equally willing to commit to life with a kid, without making me feel responsible for his choice too. We both want the other to be happy and don’t want to be the person responsible for the other’s unhappiness. We do communicate better now 😆. He was massively against marriage too but, the second it looked like I might lose protection on my rights to a stake in our house when we last moved a few years back, he didn’t miss a beat in asking me to marry him. There was no way he was ever going to let me be that vulnerable when he could provide a safety net.

Your partner, despite you having told her how much her behaviour around your family upsets you, continues to be the source of your unhappiness The lack of empathy or willingness to even try and compromise - not about having kids but just about behaving with common decency around your family is…breathtaking. You are not responsible for caring for her mental health issues. She is. If there is an issue, then it is up to her to take steps to address it. If she refuses to acknowledge that, then you really have no choice but to leave.

I honestly don't care what you think. It's how I feel and I do not care to change it if my opinions make you uncomfortable then you can avoid them but there is nothing you can say make them go away. If that is uncomfortable for you then that is a problem for you, not me.

Yep, OP, you need a solicitor.

"she will probably try to ruin me if we split" Do you mean go out of her way to make you suffer, if you were to break up??

Hope I'm misreading that, but if not, then that is extremely troubling OP.

Financially, I mean.

It's become apparent to me over the last couple of years that what she really cares about, more than anything, is money and status - and what she really, really won't ever forgive her father for (besides the psychological abuse) is diminishing her financial and social standing when the family fell apart as a result of his actions. This is what I meant when I spoke previously about her seeing her life's goal as being one of vengeance.

Frankly, it scares me sometimes. And that makes me think that if she sees her current position threatened she'll make my life hell to get out of it. I think some of that is at the root of her bad relationship with my family - it's one of envy. She's extremely intelligent to the point that she is virtually always the smartest person in the room by a long way, and I think there's a sense of entitlement on her part that if they (gestures vaguely) can have... I don't know exactly? bigger houses? longer holidays? ... so should she.

This is becoming more and more disturbing OP. I hope you take the advice offered to you here and seek legal advice asap, with the aim of disentangling from this relationship. Now is not the time for therapy, that can wait until you are in a space to be able to safely reflect.

Well you’re not married so that helps. Do you know the exact legal terms on which you bought the house jointly and how you will get out of it? If not, an hour or two with a solicitor (assuming it was a simple set up and you have all the paper trail) will set you up. And don’t underestimate the extent to which the way you deliver the message to her might impact the outcome. Even if it means not saying everything you want to say, once you’ve mentally separated from someone you have to assume they’ll be putting themselves first. And therefore so must you. Be decent, but don’t be a fool.