Managing when one of your children is just in all honesty a lot nicer than the other

[Thisdayinjune]

I have two children, a girl who is four and a boy who is two.

My daughter has some great qualities but they often get lost beneath the sullenness and argumentative nature she seems to have … it kicked in when she was three and shoes no signs of leaving any time soon. She’s five in December.

We’re driving and I say ‘ooh that was a steep hill.’ She says ‘no it’s NOT.’ I say it’s hot today, she says ‘it ISN’T.’ If you just sort of ‘oh OK’ that she keeps coming back at you with ‘it ISN’T hot, mummy, it ISN’T.’ That’s the answer to everything; tidy up, why, it’s messy, no it’s NOT. Following any sort of discipline with her is difficult and I don’t let some behaviours slide but ignore some, praise the good, sometimes do shout (I’m not perfect) but I do try, I really honestly do.

Then I had her brother and it was a bit like … I get why people enjoy parenting. He’s not a unicorn child; he has tantrums and he has whingey moments and normal child stuff but I feel like he wants to please me, he enjoys spending time with me and seeks my love and my approval.

So I have this horrible dynamic where I do have a favourite child. I know I’ll get replies along the lines of ‘this happened to me and it ruined my life’ which is fair enough except I’m not choosing to feel like this, I hate that I do, I’d give anything to have a normal and loving relationship with DD but it’s just not there at the moment.

How much one to one time do you and she have together? It can be difficult when you have a second child.

A fair amount tbh. Obviously not loads but that is just the reality when you have more than one child.

Is she the complete opposite of you OP? Because you seem to be trying to train her into something she isn’t. I have heavy feet walking and I struggle with an indoor voice - I know this I mean I really know it from my parents (particularly my Dad) being like you. And I do try but even now excitement etc gets too much.

You are trying to mould and create a child that I don’t think exists, you are trying to take away parts of her that just are her and no amount of nagging or training are going to change. Refine and polish by all means but change no.

you are fighting her on too many fronts on too much that is her normal even if it isn’t yours. So that the big ones the ones you do need to fight such as sitting at the bottom of a slide get lost

the one mantra I always have is you have to parent the child you have not the child you want and not the child you think you have. And you aren’t I don’t think you aren’t parenting the child you have

strip back to what is a necessity and what is actually just part of her. And do try to get one to one time with both - family time is important but so is individual time and that is just as true for father/daughter

Possibly @Tiswa but I can’t just say she can chuck sand everywhere and that’s the child I have, or scream and shout so much that others’ enjoyment of an experience is impeded (I’m not talking about rock concerts but eg singing loudly in a cafe so those around us can’t hear conversation. It’s stuff like that I do have to address. And while I’m sure you don’t, if you were stopping others from enjoying an experience I’d say your dad would be right to correct that.

Again, perhaps she is doing that to drown out the noise herself, because there is a sensory experience underlying it. If you could get to the bottom of that you could divert her to something different or perhaps offer her noise cancelling headphones or a beanbag to squish or a weighted blanket. Something that would be less obviously disruptive but would meet her sensory needs (whether it is to drown out external noise or her proprioceptory needs) at the same time.

I really don’t think that she is. I’m certainly not going to assume she’s neurodivergent when nursery don’t think she is, medical professionals don’t think she is and to be honest I don’t think she is either. There are literally no signs apart from being stroppy sometimes and being loud and annoying which is most four year olds to be fair.

Also providing her with these tools rather than simply correcting her behaviour will mean that she will also learn how to regulate herself over time as she grows older and has a basket of tools to draw upon when she is feeling ‘fizzy’ or the need to move, touch, be loud.

And the consequence of correcting run deep.

you are still trying to think of it as something you can correct and change rather than accepting her.

in the end an acceptance of the fact that it wasn’t something to correct or I could change and handled Ina much better lighter way was the way forward and understanding that is sometimes letting a person be themselves is as important and those around them. A look as if to say calm it down now remember where you are

you have to accept her as she is and work out when and when not to. When to gently remind her (and not correct) and when to let her be her

do you want to correct this OP because it involves looking at your role in it and accepting her for who she is and not trying to correct who in essence she is

But as you have said yourself she is louder and more chaotic than other four year olds, and is much more full on. We all have different sensory needs btw, it doesn’t mean we are going to be diagnosed. I really need utter silence to work (Loop earplugs have been a game changer) and I really don’t like people touching my hair for instance. I also like doing things with my hands. I find noisy, flashy environments really exhausting. I am 100% not neurodivergent but I have now learned how to meet my own sensory needs and fill up my sensory cup when needed. I do some embroidery in the evenings, I tell DH I need solitude. I lie in a bath tube and sink under the water. And so on…

If you honestly think that I should smile and say oh, ok sorry, it’s just who she is so I’m not going to correct her when she charges around in a cafe or repeatedly kicks the seat in front of us on a bus then I’m afraid we have very different approaches to parenting @Tiswa and we therefore probably won’t see eye to eye on this topic.

Than some @PotolKimchi . I don’t think she’s dramatically out of the ordinary. The issue is when my battery is flat I struggle to cope with normal four year old behaviour plus normal two year old behaviour. And I have said a couple of times now that I posted in a very low sort of moment. I do think she’s boisterous and exuberant but she can also be very gentle and she’s certainly nice with other younger children once you remind her of their existence (eg the sand.)

I really don’t think @Tiswa is saying that. She is saying that while you say no to the kicking you also re-direct that energy to something (a fidget toy, a squishy ball etc) to meet whatever sensory need she is feeling to keep kicking in that manner.
The two are not mutually inconsistent. And what you are hoping is that when she’s older, she will reach for the thing that meets her sensory need automatically rather than kicking or talking loudly or chucking sand.

Anyway in a funny turnaround the two year old has been an arse this morning so my comeuppance is nigh!

Right but it still needs correcting. And sometimes in that moment you do need to say no, I can’t let you throw sand / shove that kid out of the way / kick the elderly gentleman in front of us. Diagnosing someone by internet is dodgy at best and I’m going to be guided by the professionals on this not MN.

No that isn’t what I said and you aren’t listening either.

My parenting isn’t what this is about and neither is how I approach it because I don’t have yiur child and I don’t have a 5 year old. Mine are 16 and 12 so very different.

the question is do you want a relationship with her because part of that is accepting who she is and you haven’t done that - you still want to correct.

and that is a loaded word - I am all for reminding her about where she is to pay attention to people around her etc boundaries are very important. But you want to change and correct the child you have and that is why you aren’t bonding and why she isn’t listening to you. Find a balance between what isn’t acceptable and what you let go and what you tell her she can’t do. And it is interesting that in this discussion it has gone from singing and talking loudly to hitting a seat

Your approach isn’t working either by what you have said and you won’t take any suggestion that parenting courses etc will help.

You don’t need a diagnosis for this. One of my kids (the louder more boisterous one, also with an inside voice that is a work in progress) when he’s exhausted needs sensory deprivation. Now that he’s almost 9 he will come to me and go, I am going to my bedroom. And he will do a low hum and build Lego in semi darkness. My very quiet and shy child on the other hand, needs to expel physical energy and keep his hands occupied otherwise he starts jiggling his legs and biting his fingers. He has a row of twelve Rubik’s cubes in his room! Neither of them are remotely neurodivergent and most people would say they are largely pretty well behaved in public. But as their mum I can notice their quirks and differences and guide them to meet their specific needs without having professional involved? In the same way if one of my kids was struggling with numbers and maths I would offer them support. Or if one of them found reading tricky I would provide support without needing a diagnosis of dyslexia to do so (and they may find something hard without it being a ‘condition’).

So essentially you think I should parent her with kindness and guidance, which I try to do. But sometimes she does have to be told not to do something (which I’m sure you do with your own children.)

No essentially I think you need to understand and work out the child you have and work out what techniques work for her.

both of mine are different what worked for one doesn’t for the other. My parenting techniques aren’t going to be for you because they have been adapted to my children and their personalities

DD never needed any form of boundaries or guidance as to not biting/pushing etc. DS did. DD needed help getting confident in pushing herself forward DS needed help in when to hold himself back.

I remember taking DD to class and for my shame being incredibly judgmental about those who ran around but it isn’t parenting so much as the child. DS was a different matter I quickly had to learn the classes I so enjoyed with DD weren’t for him.

yiu cannot correct personality that is ingrained and you cannot change it. You can mould it and you can find techniques to help with

There is a lot of good advice on here as to what techniques can be used to help sensory stuff but the first step is accepting her and the 4 year old she is

She's having a knobhead phase. I find they usually have about 3. One at toddler age, sort of 2 to 5ish. Then they're a pleasure for a couple of years till they hit about 8, at which point they are complete tossers for a year.

Then at around 9.5 to 10, they're much better and this continues until around 12 when they become gobshites who think they're Billy Big Bollocks and show off, giving you cheek, thinking they're big and clever. This one can last until around 17 or until you finally lose it and go postal in front of their mates and tell them some home truths and to shape the fuck up.

@Tiswa i was actually addressing @PotolKimchi with that response as I’m trying not to get drawn into an argument with you. I understand what you’re saying better than I think you do. You think I have a loud, confident, boisterous child who I should let be that way. I indeed can until that loudness or boisterous nature is potentially harmful and then I have to step in. However, this can mean a LOT of stepping in, so to speak. I’m not sure there is an answer to this.

It comes and goes doesn’t it @Balloonhearts ? One of the things I realised this morning is I am much more chilled about annoying behaviour from DS as I know there’s an end to it. But also the difference is primarily that I feel in control of situations with DS; I don’t always with Dd.

I honestly find 4 a really difficult age.

If it has ramped up since 3, I would say you're in grey area territory - it seems anecdotally, children who later turn out to be neurodivergent tend to feel a lot harder at this age, I think because the majority of children tend to grow out of the toddler tantrums and emotional dysregulation by 4 and get better at following instructions, communicating, working with you and managing on their own. Not perfect of course, they are still only little, but there seems to be a significant shift where it's like wow, now they are a little person rather than simply an adorable agent of chaos. But if your child just ramps up the chaos and dysregulation then it can feel a bit like WTF is happening now.

I say grey area because of course some children do simply have their tricky period at 3/4 instead of 2/3, calm down by 5 and don't turn out to be ND but I do think it's useful to have the possibility in mind.

It does help to know if they are ND in the same way that it would help to know if somebody is deaf but excellent at lipreading. If you keep talking to them when they are facing the wrong way, and they don't hear you and you get frustrated and think they are being rude and then by the time you do get their attention you have irritable body language, they are likely to respond to that body language by being irritable back and you will both have a bad impression of each other and it will sour all your interactions. OTOH if you know that the person is deaf, then you know that you need to face them when speaking and you probably will have fewer communication struggles. And if you made an incorrect assumption and the person is not deaf, it's not like making sure you face somebody is a terribly rude thing to do - it can only improve communication.

This is similar to what happens with a lot of ND children. We have an expectation, probably a completely unconscious one that you never even thought of as an expectation, and the ND child can't meet it and this comes across as being rude, or obstinate, or exasperating. We miss pieces of information from them as well. For example, most people would probably understand that a lot of children would struggle to regulate their behaviour in a heatwave and you'd want to make sure they have access to water and shade. But a child who has sensory sensitivities might be feeling as uncomfortable as the NT child in a heatwave but every day. It might be that the noise, light, sensation of clothing etc of everyday life feels as oppressive as this kind of heat to them and yet because it's normal for everyone else, nobody is thinking to offer them breaks from it like a different place to sit in the classroom away from a sunny window, or things which might help like ear defenders or the option to wear non-standard uniform.

If she has always been difficult to settle it could be that there are sensory issues at play. If you ever listen to any interview with Lisa Lloydd (SENbetweeners author/ASD with a G&T on social media) her description of how her children were so difficult to settle as babies and toddlers will probably ring true.

Ignoring it is impossible IME. I did find it was easier to apply parenting advice once I got my own ADHD diagnosed and treated (appreciate this is another huge waiting list and/or you might not even feel this is applicable anyway). Understanding the concept of dysregulation rather than trying to address any specific behaviour did help me a lot. Ultimately reducing the child's dysregulation will reduce the behaviour which then means you're not SO stuck in a constant cycle of dysregulating each other and means you can potentially work on things individually.

It was harder for me with my eldest because I had no clue about ND back then. I did worry intensely about our relationship. He is 16 now and we have a much better relationship. One thing I did was just try to write down each day one nice thing we did together even if it was something stupid like we watched a TV programme together or he showed me a drawing he did at school or we kicked a conker all the way home (there is one stretch where I ONLY wrote this every day for about 2-3 weeks in a row ) I can't remember the specifics of the bad interactions now, but I do remember some of the nice things I wrote down.

One book which helped me with him was When Your Kids Push Your Buttons. It won't stop the behaviour and some parts of it are naff but it helped me see where/why it was winding me up and reframe some aspects.

My issue was perhaps a bit different, but also had some similarities. I think I had post-partum depression which often expressed as anger with DS2, which then affected my relationship with DS1. I had counselling - privately, which was quite a lot of money but also some of the best money I've ever spent. It completely changed how I felt and parented. I did find I had to 'shop around' a bit - I spoke to a few potential counsellors about what the issue, and chose the only one who didn't feel judgemental in that initial conversation - but I found the right person to work with and it made such a difference. As you've found: you're not going to get good, non-judgemental, constructive discussions on this on MN, and I felt any attempt to speak to friends or family in real-life would be similar. I needed to unpack it, properly, with a trained and experienced stranger.

Two really helpful posts I don’t think I can do full justice to but I’ll try.

@BertieBotts thank you firstly. I do know what you and everyone means about whether she’s being ND or not. A longer version of that post I made might have been that even if she is ND, it won’t change the behaviour (the opposite to a certain extent!)

That said I really don’t think she is. I have been on MN long enough to know every post about a child’s behaviour will eventually see N-diversity first suggested, then pushed, then assumed and that’s what I think some posters have done here. But I do find her low level stuff tiring and I’m sure she does too - the charging around and the mess she makes when playing and the ignoring me when it’s tidying time. This isn’t the sort of ‘oh well this is a quiet crafty activity but I don’t have a quiet crafty kid’ which I appreciate - it’s just constant no matter what you’re doing.

@Hardbackwriter counselling is possibly helpful. I would have to shop around as you say as not everyone is going to he someone I’ll feel like opening up to and the wrong person could be devastating. It’s interesting about the anger though as that’s something which has been simmering since Dd was born really. I can remember stomping out of a pumpkin picking place with her when she was about the same age as DS is now because she was determined to push the wheelbarrow but couldn’t and was getting so angry. I don’t know why I got so upset about it but there have been a lot of times like that where anger or something anyway has taken over.

I do sometimes expect too much of both my kids and I know that and I’ve got better at recognising age appropriate behaviour. It’s hard when the strategies just don’t work, though.

I have 4 sisters.

The level of niceness diminished with each one of us born.

Eldest sister is too good for this world and makes Pollyanna seem like Atilla the Hun.

I am the 4th sister, the one below me is evil to her very core, I am not horrible but I do find it an effort to be nice as it’s tedious.