Should my wife support me on this?

[OzzyGrandad]

My wife & I attended a Christmas dinner at our daughters in laws. The dinner was on the table but there were still a few items to be placed & finalized. I asked my daughters mother in law if it was ok to start, she said yes. The rest of the party sat down & I had already begun eating. (I admit was not a good move). I believe the son of the mother in law wanted to say grace before dinner & was angry that I had started. He launched into a tirade of abuse, aggressively belittling me about my bad manners. I tried to explain that his mother had said it was ok to start, but this was ignored. I remained calm for the rest of the evening & then we went home. The next day I texted the son, explained my position & informed him that I would not tolerate such verbal abuse again, hoping he would regret being so abusive & apologize. He texted back, F off D Head.
We drop our grandson at his house every weekend & he returns him on Sunday. I asked my wife, when he drops his son off, to be courteous, but to not show any of the usual friendliness, just pick him up & say goodbye until he apologizes to me for his behavior. My wife refused, saying it was between me & him. She behaved as if nothing had happened & was friendly.
My question to the readers of this story is, should my wife have agreed to just be courteous & not friendly, or was she right to ignore my feelings on the matter.

The other guy did start it though. It doesn’t make someone childish for refusing to have a friendly relationship with someone who’s called them an ignorant stupid fucking prick. It would make them a doormat. He’s just getting all this hate cos he’s a man. If he was a woman he’d probably be told he was “being abused” and should go NC 🙄

I'll try again.

What are you going to do if being cordial doesn't produce an apology?

Especially if, as seems clear, the OP thinks ‘cordial’ means pretty much the opposite of what it does mean.

I'm pretty sure the punishment only amounts to no more small talk with the wife. So I'd be surprised if he even notices honestly.

I’d be very interested to encounter a woman who, as other women were bustling around putting the finishing touches to Christmas dinner, didn’t simply think the best way to expedite things would be to help out , so that everyone could sit down together, rather than sitting down and starting carving meat, or then not just apologising when ticked off for poor manners.

Lots of female pushers on Mn have festered about a minor incident from months or years ago, and are generally told briskly to get their head out of their ass, just like this OP.

I'm here reading the latest of Ozzi's petulant pompous epistles and just laughing my head off. This character being revealed for us in real-time is my stepfather, my FIL, an ex-friend, my ex-boss, my elderly neighbor, and my friend's STXH.

It's pointless trying to explain anything to these men - and yes, I have NEVER met a woman like this type of behavior. Patriarchy creates men like this. They are sick with Main Character Syndrome*, have zero self-awareness, and think only about themselves and their silly pride. They are thoroughly selfish and argumentative, completely deaf and blind to reason, and inspire tremendous irritation if not outright dislike in others. And they are always - ALWAYS - completely baffled and then enraged and grudge-bearing when their shit behavior reaps them consequences, such as being told off, friends dropping them, being sidelined in their job, or kids not visiting anymore.

It's not funny if you're in any way dependent on characters like this but when you're out of it, it's hilarious to see their predictably infantile and mulish behaviors.

I do feel very sorry for Ozzi's wife, maybe one day she will leave her dreadful H and find the same joy in life as my friend, who is divorcing her Ozzi after 30 years of enduring him. No doubt Ozzi will behave just like my friend's STBX - petulant, stubborn, stymying the divorce at every turn, and exasperating everyone involved (STBX's own lawyer is threatening to fire him as a client). But at least it'll be over soon and my friend will be free of this impossible man forever.

So, I am going to leave this thread. I advise everyone else to stop wasting their time on getting Ozzi to see reason, because he won't.

*Main character syndrome is when someone sees themselves as the primary protagonist in their life, viewing others as supporting characters. They tend to believe that they're the most important person in most situations and interactions with people.

Signs of main character syndrome include:
Self-centered behavior: People with main character syndrome often prioritize their own needs and experiences over those of others, believing their feelings are the most important.
Attention-seeking: They may create or exaggerate situations to draw attention to themselves, ensuring they are the focal point in social settings.
Narrative framing: They view life events as part of a personal story in which they are the main characters, giving undue importance to their role in everyday occurrences.
Over-dramatization: People with this mindset often make ordinary situations seem more dramatic or important than they are, reacting with exaggerated emotions.
Expectations of special treatment: They believe they deserve special attention or treatment and expect others to go out of their way to accommodate them.
Lack of empathy: They have difficulty understanding or valuing the experiences and feelings of others, often showing little genuine concern for others' problems.
Social media behavior: They frequently post about their lives and experiences on social media, seeking validation from likes and comments and presenting an idealized version of their life.

I can't stand these men V women posts on MN. If his wife had posted in the same circumstances, I bet the reaction would have been the same - mine certainly would. No-one has said SIL wasn't rude and if OP had posted in December, then he would have got a very different reaction. OP was rude too and doesn't seem to have apologised to anyone. He wasn't a doormat, he dealt with it at the time (just not particularly well) and BTW called the SIL a ignorant stupid fucking prick or a variant of that, and the outcome was that SIL said it wouldn't happen again - pretty much a win. This is a tricky relationship that they are going to be in for 12+ years and one that the wife is trying to carefully navigate and they want this man in their grandson's life. Over four months later the wife dares to offer SIL a cup of tea and OP loses his sht, ignores her pleas of not rocking the boat, considers divorce, wears her down with 'conversations' and argues with a bunch of strangers online continually. Now OP wants to rake it all up again and have it out with the SIL again. And the outcome of all this fuss? They will be cordial but not friendly to the OP to teach him a lesson - so very little but the OP can feel vindicated 🙄

OP didn't ask who started it or how he should interact with SIL, he asked if his wife should do what he wants her to (basically). The poor woman, who in all likelihood is carrying the load of bringing up a small child in her 60s, is trying to negotiate a sensitive situation and a relationship between an awkward man and a truculent husband.

edited because it randomly put a chunk of text in bold

OP, I'd strongly recommend NOT asking your grandson's dad for an apology. It's been five months. Asking for an apology now will only make you look weird and pathetic.

And let's face it - he's not going to say "I'm sorry." Guys like that see themselves as Top Dogs. Tough Guys. Alpha Males. And Alpha Males never apologise. Never. Because it's a sign of weakness. If you're lucky, he'll laugh in your face. If you're unlucky, he'll punch you in the face.

What these types of guys respect more, is action. Lead with your behaviour. If you and your wife aren't prepared to cut him off altogether, the thing to do is set appropriate boundaries - which in your case is simply carrying on being civil but not overly-friendly towards him. It sounds like your wife is now on board with your approach, so that should be the end of the matter.

you were rude & inconsiderate! And you sound quite antiquated in how you treat your wife too.

They're not going to be friendly any more; they're just going to be...

I'm starting to wonder if his wife is having second thoughts about divorce and new patios. She has the patience of a saint for sure.

Jeeez! I think you’ve had a really rough time on here! Initially because it wasn’t clear in your original post that you in fact have custody of your grandson. So I think most people were saying ‘let it go’ because if you choose to die on this hill, you could lose all access to Locky.

Now it’s clear you and your wife are his guardians, it changes things.

You didn’t start eating before anyone else, you merely offered to start carving and asked the hosts permission to which she said yes. You go every year, very informal, so ignore all the responses about etiquette etc. They are correct, it is poor etiquette to start eating before the host is sat but that is not what happened here.

The way he spoke to you, in front of everyone, was disgusting. And how ironically un-Christian! 🙄🤦🏼‍♀️🤣
I can only imagine how he would behave in private if that is what he deems acceptable in public. He’s a POS.

Not only do you grant him access, you even travel to his house to drop Locky off because he CBA and sometimes collect him too! You get no child support from him and no offence but in a cost of living crisis at 68 and on a pension (I assume) is really difficult - and it will only get harder as the things he wants and needs get more expensive.

Your wife should have got up and left the dinner table, and you should have all gone home. How you sat there in awkward silence at Christmas over dinner I have no idea.

Moving forward, why are you even giving him opportunities to apologise? He had that, and even after time to reflect said ‘F off D head’.

He has NO RESPECT for you. The man actually raising that little boy and driving him to see him every week. He’s shown you who he is. With or without an apology should make no difference now, he’s vile.

Your biggest concern is how to protect Locky from him when he hits his teen years and his ‘dad’ lets him do anything and drink and smoke and go out, and you guys don’t. Locky will want to be with his dad who’s cool and lets him do bad things etc

Then you’ll lose the sweet innocent little boy you raised, to that POS. I’d move 🤷🏼‍♀️

Sorry you’re going through this and that your wife allowed it/excused it by carrying on as normal. You deserve better.

If a meal is a hot meal, it is acceptable to start eating before everyone is served, so that the food doesn’t go cold. If it’s a cold meal, you wait.

The father of your GS was rude, but you are now being rude in return. In your shoes I would be more concerned about the possibility of him in future deciding he wants your GS full time, and I wouldn’t be picking a fight over this.

You committed a social faux pas at Christmas Lunch but yes your host was incredibly rude for the way he spoke to you. Yes he should apologise, do I think he will, no.

I think you need to consider the law of diminishing returns here, you’ll use up lots of emotional energy on this ‘battle’ and never get the result you want. You need to consider that it might be time to stop waiting for an apology (that you clearly won’t get.) Some people are non-apologists, it’s rubbish but often true, especially in people who behave so poorly. It’s fine for you to downgrade the relationship with him going forward. Cordial and polite is fine.

I think you need to give your wife some grace here, women are so often the family peacekeepers, I’m guessing that that’s the role she’s taken on here. Being happy that you’ve warn her down to your way of thinking is really sad. I think you said she was shocked at his behaviour and agreed with you at the time - so she did support you but now she looking at the bigger picture - keeping the peace for the sake of her grandchild.

Imagine your wife posting on here - Christmas lunch was a nightmare and my husband won’t stop going on about it! How do I make it stop.

@Sahj123

You didn’t start eating before anyone else, you merely offered to start carving and asked the hosts permission to which she said yes. You go every year, very informal, so ignore all the responses about etiquette etc. They are correct, it is poor etiquette to start eating before the host is sat but that is not what happened here.

He literally said he did it in the OP and several times after. Later he added that he carved the meat first (unclear if anyone actually asked him to do that) and became unsure if he ate contradicting himself. The ladies hadn't even finished putting things out on the table. It wasn't up to the OP to decide the meat was getting cold, he was a guest not the host and you certainly do not do that on Christmas day. All that effort and one of the guests doesn't wait for you to sit down! Obviously SIL shouldn't have spoken to him in that way which his wife agreed with so she did back him at the time. Maybe they should have left, but they didn't. The next day the OP told SIL to F off Dhead back which is a tad hypocritical. Of course SIL should apologise however he did say it wouldn't happen again which is an acknowlegement that he did something wrong. OP doesn't appear to have apologised to anyone.

YOU might think SIL is a POS and they should go NC, but THEY have decided they don't want to do that. They will probably have a long-term relationship with him. I agree the whole situation is far from ideal, but it is what it is.

The concensus seems to be that the SIL was extremely and unnecessarily rude but most posters are pointing out that nearly five months later is too late to bring it up again, contemplating divorcing over it is a tad extreme, that there is a little boy in the middle of this who would probably benefit from the wife's decision to try to keep the peace and that the OP is being inflexible and not taking any responsibility for his own actions (because he is 100% right).

The consequence that OP is handing out to the SIL? : they are going to be cordial to him from now on 🙄Was that really worth the fuss that the OP has made?

A big thank you to the very few people who supported me. To everyone else. you have given me food for thought.
I have taken your advice and will remain friendly with the father of my GS for the sake of peace within the two families. At the next family dinner, I will wait until everyone has been seated & participate in grace (if it is performed), then wait for someone else to carve the roast. Then we can all try to enjoy the cold roast at exactly the same time.
There should not be any "name calling" but if I inadvertently upset the father again, & he calls me "names" I will sit quietly and nod in agreement, and not expect an apology. My GS will learn an important lesson, if someone does something to upset you, become aggressive & call them names, and if they dare to ask for an apology, or even worse, quote your words back to you, threaten to beat the shit out of them. That will persuade them to shut up & be friendly again.

I will have to be sure to not upset him in the future, as it is a very unpleasant experience being called "names". I realize now that I must never ask for an apology no matter how badly he might treat my wife or I. (I don't want to go through that again). When I do see him next, I will sit with him, treat him to a friendly beer, and thank him for the very convincing manners lesson that he has taught me, and the best way to handle it.
Thank you all.

I'm beginning to understand the dynamics of how this kicked off in the first place.

Trying to keep the peace within the two families - tick.

Guests waiting for the host/hostess to carve or waiting to be asked to do it - tick, tick

Guests waiting for everyone to be seated before they start eating and certainly not while the hosts are still putting things out on the table - tick. (I was taught to wait for the nod from the hosts).

All perfectly sensible and polite.

Please refresh our memories where any posters advised you to sit down and have a beer with SIL and thank him or anything remotely similar OP?

Maybe next time don't wait for four and a half months to blow up again and threaten to divorce your wife?

Maybe being cordial isn't much of a punishment/consequence, so really what was the point?

Concensus on here agreed with you that SIL was unreasonable and incredibly rude (and many were sympathetic to your situation) but you are conveniently ignoring that to make a silly point.

Maybe don't ask the question if you can't cope with the answer?

I’d love ozzy to keep us updated with his life as there’s something incredible about seeing this snapshot of what it’s like being him, and his way of relating to the people around him. I mean we all have blind spots but seeing someone else’s is compelling reading.

Yes. Frankly it’s increasingly surprising to me that no one lunged at him with the carving knife over Christmas dinner.

@OzzyGrandadhe (the dad) sounds like the kind of bloke who needs to be taken down a peg or two in a dark alley by someone who’s more of a wrongun than he is, honestly! But unfortunately, as grandfather you are so limited in what you can do, and you have to think of your grandchild. I think the posters putting the blame on you are completely missing the point.

@OzzyGrandad I was entirely supportive of your position. I don't believe you did anything wrong. You had permission to carve the meat and eat. You didn't deserve to be abused. No one has the right to talk to you like that. I also feel that your wife should absolutely support you and your position on civility as apposed to friendliness. HOWEVER, your responses are rude, abrasive and petulant. You asked a question and people answered that question from their experience but also from how you present yourself. You don't seem to like criticism. It's best not to ask the question unless you are prepared for the many options you'll get. Anyhow, I wish you well in your future endeavours. I hope your GC continues to have a relationship with the widest network of people that love him. Hopefully, his interactions with everyone are happy and calm.