Husbands pitbull becoming snappy in old age, and I’m pregnant

[Oliveover28]

It took me two years to convince my now husband to keep his pitbull dog with his mum for me to move into his house with my two small dogs. The reason for me not wanting my two dogs around his dog is his dog previously attacked and killed his mums small dog. Apparently he done this because the smaller dog kept snapping at him and the family seem to think it’s justified? Bear in mind this was a teacup senior dog. Awful.

anyway the agreement was the pitbull can come back once we buy a bigger house as I pushed for the can’t separate 3 dogs in a small house excuse. Anyway we are looking to buy a house this year, and husband is saying why wouldn’t his dog come back to live in the house he buys. Well, lately the dog has been snapping at people a little more, husband says oh it’s old age.

problem is, I’m now pregnant. I feel extremely uncomfortable around this dog, this dog around my dogs and now this dog around a defenseless baby? He says we will keep them separate, but that sounds like hell having a new born, and 3 dogs to keep separate whilst he’s at work all day. He said sometimes he will take him to work, and I could probably push for only having the dog at home on the weekends. But still, I just don’t know if I’ll be able to relax in my own home and I want to be in the best mindset possible to raise my first child. I want to feel relaxed at an already stressful time.

AIBU? Any suggestions on what to say to my husband as to why I don’t want his dog coming back. He is saying oh he only snaps at people he doesn’t know, not his own family. I will also add the dog only snaps at weak people (a senior with cancer, and a friend with MS) it’s like they can sense weakness. He fully believes this dog is going to see our baby as his family, but this dog is already ten years old.

Sadly, he's an idiot who won't accept that pitbulls are not a safe breed. He's bought into the lies that there's no real difference between breeds, because some small breed dogs bite, too, etc, etc. Yes, any dog can snap, but when most (normal, companion breed) dogs bite, it's a quick bite and then it's over with. Death and serious injury are unlikely. Pitbulls were bred for fighting and killing, and they're very good at it. When a 'pibble' snaps (always unexpectedly, of course 🙄), it's far more likely to cause a disfiguring, irreversible injury or death. And in this case, the dog is irritable and a proven killer of small creatures, so the chances of something happening are higher.

There's nothing you can do but give him an ultimatum and be willing to stand by it. I would refuse to live with a pitbull as an adult, so I certainly wouldn't have my baby live with one. Your poor dogs, too. It's just not right. Don't sacrifice them for the chance to stay with an immature and rather stupid man.

The mental dog and husband aside, aren't you worried about raising a child in USA anyway? With school shootings and lack of health care etc is not something I could do

Nevermind the dog’s reaction to people— the fact that it killed another dog is reason alone enough for it to be an only-dog in whatever home it ends up having.

I can tell you from experience, keeping dogs who are risks to one another “separate” just isn’t a thing. Something inevitably goes wrong where a door is left not-quite-closed, or there’s a miscommunication and suddenly all the dogs are viciously warring in the garden and you’re screaming and doing everything you can to separate them before they kill or maim each other, but you’re only one person and it’s just flashes of teeth and jaws everywhere and there’s no way you’re coming out of it without getting bitten…It’s absolutely not safe or fair for anybody, and not good for you to deal with that stress as a pregnant mum!

I have lingering PTSD from trying to stop a 4-dog fight, rolling on the ground with a hand on a barely-on collar, another buried in a dog’s scruff, and my legs trying to keep the other two at a distance, while being 7 months pregnant. Thankfully the neighbor hopped the fenced and helped or else someone was going to be toast, and I only ended up with a couple bites, some scrapes, and a bruised hip… I wish we had rehomed the dog causing the fights sooner, because now every time I hear a sound even remotely like a dog fight my panic and fight-or-flight response go CRAZY.

Put your foot down and tell him unfortunately that dog is not coming back in your home, and that you won’t be visiting your MIL when the dog is there.

Also have him take the dog to the vets because there’s likely a medical issue making the dog snappy; that’s not just something that happens “from old age.”

This

I remember your previous posts I think...

This dog is not safe in your home - I am a behaviour consultant, I work with difficult dogs all the time.

Take it from me, management always fails in the end - people who live with their houses split with dogs who must not ever meet, fuck it up in the long run. Sometimes its a genuine mistake, mostly its someone (the man of the house or the dogs actual owner) gets complacent and thinks the dog will be just fine, I'll risk it...

Sometimes its not them that fucks up directly, its a visitor, a family member, a kid - but someone always does.

When it happens, someone gets hurt.

Even before that though, living in a split house like that is horribly stressful, you need to keep TWO doors shut between the dog and kid or dog and other dogs at all times. That might be a crate door and a room door or two room doors.

That is not a relaxing and easy way to live for humans.

Now, really concerning, from the dog side of the equation - you and he don't seem to have a CLUE about dog behaviour - older dogs do not simply 'get snappy' - im living with a 16 year old dog right now, he is not 'snappy'.

However older dogs DO suffer more pain, cognitive dysfunction, impaired mobility and this causes fear and a loss of inhibition. This may mean they're far more likely to use aggression as a defense when they are in pain or fear pain or just can't get away quickly enough.

We mitigate that by treating for pain - doesn't sound like he's bothered to do this.

Dogs experiencing pain are much more likely to feel threatened by unusual things - eg. people taking strong medications, people who are in pain or who are frail and move oddly - that can show up in them being aggressive toward such people - aggression is a dogs way of getting more space/distance from something frightening. Some dogs will use aggression in a maladaptive manner - so instead of freezing/backing off whilst growling and only biting when cornered ie defensively aggressive, they'll approach and be offensively aggressive.

This is also likely in breeds we've manipulated to bluff or approach and tackle things rather than back off (so pitbulls, german shepherds, malinois, rotties etc etc).

Even if you can mitigate the pain, a dog who is kept isolated from the rest of the house is likely to not have his needs met properly, and the move would trigger more anxiety and insecurity and stress, so he'd need more attention and company, not less. Add in two smaller dogs when he has a problem with small dogs, AND a new human AND a baby... that is a recipe for total disaster.

Well, yes, it might well do just that. So it doesn't get to live in the same house as your baby and has no contact with your baby anywhere else. This dog has killed before. It has the ability and temperament to kill again. It should have been euthanised when it killed last time.

You reply 'Yes. Some dogs get jealous. They attack the threat, and can circumvent barriers to get near it, usually when you aren't watching. Put bills were bred for fighting & hunting & and just won't risk it. They've been known to kill babies before. I will not change my mind about our baby's safety. I understand you have a choice to make, but I won't live with that dog'.

There's a very good reason put bills are illegal in my country. Sadly, because killing babies, other dogs & people has happened.

Thank you for explaining all this. On the flip side I have read that pit bulls and fighting breeds sense weakness as part of their prey drive but your explanation also makes sense.

can I ask how he would view the new dogs and the baby? As a threat, that he needs to defend himself against? Partner has no idea why he is snapping as such. He just puts it down to oh strangers and new people. The dog sleeps 23 hours a day.

I completely agree that someone would mess up. Husband has already said things like “you really think our dogs are never going to be around each other?” Imagine a life walking on egg shells with a new born baby, not wanting any visitors incase one leaves a door open, waiting for people to leave so you can relax. Not to mention the arguments about him saying “now it’s time for your dogs to be locked away and my dog out”.

Op, none of us can imagine such a life, because it’s a life where your babies life is at risk every second you don’t have them in your arms. We would make whatever decisions necessary to not live such a life, and to protect our child.

New dogs, new baby, unfamiliar environment (new house)... all = stress.

Babies and smaller dogs may trigger a predatory response, but in an old dog its more likely to trigger a 'go away and leave me alone' response, which could be as mild as a growl or bark as he backs away, but could equally be a full on attack - much depends on his own genetics and prior training.

Dogs who have great genetics, lots of tolerance, been raised to turn to adult humans for help, rewarded for moving away from scary stuff, tend to avoid things that upset them unless they can't (ie cornered).

Dogs with shitty genetics - dogs who have been raised by being punished by humans heavily (particularly the use of aversives like shock collars, anti bark collars, prong collars, choke chain corrections) have been taught to suppress their emotions and behaviour linked to those emotions.

Just like in humans, when you suppress to avoid punishment... eventually, you snap and the result tends to be pretty dramatic and potentially violent. It is also most likely to be directed at the human who is less of a threat, ie, less well known, isn't the one who did the training, is a frail/weak/smaller person ie a child or elderly person.

The situation you describe has many of the 'red flags' I see in dog attack cases, with lots of stressors on the dog, humans not actually meeting the dogs needs or understanding the dogs needs/behaviour. In particular the biggest red flag is that your husband is not taking the risk seriously and I would bet he will be complacent, will ignore any rules you insist on the minute your back is turned.

I don't subscribe to the belief that 'all pitbulls are evil' - I have met and worked with some really nice pitties - however all those potential triggers/red flags would be an issue with the NICEST, healthiest, happiest large breed 'bull and terrier' type and a great many other breeds besides.

If you were approaching me for a consultation in the UK, I would recommend you do not bring this dog into your home. If you did, I would report to childrens social services as I believe there is a very high risk to a child in this set up. I have done this in the past (and sadly on a number of occasions have been proven correct before anyone took action.)

Obviously this isn’t going to work out. That much is so blatantly obvious, I find it hard to believe you’re even Asking the question, which leads me to believe you’re used to your partner ignoring your views and railroading you into decisions against your better judgement. He is not a man I would want to procreate with, but it’s a bit late for that. As it is, he isn’t a man I would want to parent with. Apparently he seems to think that an aggressive dog is more important than the safety of your (as yet unborn) baby, he’s off to a terrible start and is managing to be a shit father before the baby is even here. Rethink your relationship and rethink your living arrangements op.

I agree but what do you say to someone who says “we will keep them separate” and is buying the house

You say "Goodbye then"

I'm assuming that you don't live in the UK, as it's illegal to own a pitbull here. In any case, you can NOT bring such a dog into your home and risk the lives even of your dogs, let alone your BABY. You must say no; even if this risks ending your marriage, your baby's life is more important.

The mum in the Bennard case I linked ro earlier in Tehnesse was weariing her baby in a sling and holding her toddler and the pitbulls ripped them off her and ripped them apart.

Stand up for yourself and tell him no, it’s not happening.

I am a dog person ( have 4) but any dog that has killed another dog, or a cat, or attacked a person , need to be pts immediately. Their brain isn't wired to live with other people/animals. There's no coming back from that. You said it killed the little dog when it was young so this is not a new thing. I'm amazed a vet didn't put it down then.

THIS

Your baby becomes a toddler then a child… he/she should never ever be around this dog. I’d never ever risk my child (or my dogs for that matter) around a pitbull. Especially an aggressive one.

OP you need to stop asking mumsnet and act to protect your baby.

OP, if there's a chance that you want to leave him, you MUST move back to your own country before the baby's born. If you don't, you will be trapped abroad forever. Leave him soon, and then once you're back home, have had the baby, and established that its home is in your country, you can work on your relationship. Tell him you're going home for a break if you have to.

The point is, you can have the baby at home and then go back to where he is, but you can't have the baby where he is and then go back home.

Assume you're in the US, where pitbulls are allowed. Dreadful creatures. A vet I know says they make Rottweilers look like lambs. They're banned in the UK for good reason.

If you are in the US, know that you won't even be allowed to take the baby out of state without his permission, let alone the country. And custody in the US strongly errs on 50/50.

The only way you will be able to regain control of your life and this baby's life is to skedaddle back home well before it's born.

I've lived in the US for twenty years and have seen British friends over here come unstuck this way.

Here is a useful article about international custody issues. Suggest you read it carefully.

https://www.international-divorce.com/expatswithchildren

Many countries are signed up to the Hague Convention, which prosecutes parents who "kidnap" children and take them back to a foreign parent's home country without the permission of the other parent. It's an act with teeth: If you try to escape back home with your baby, without Dogman's permission, the police WILL retrieve your child and jail you/prosecute you/extradite you, whichever the judge chooses. And it will get your child taken away from you. So don't think you can sort it out after the birth.

There was a UK case where a Canadian mother really wanted to take her UK-born child back to Canada after splitting with the father, and she petitioned the court saying that her mental health was badly affected by having to raise her child in a country where she had no family support. The judge said tough shit and suck it up, you can't take him back to Canada with you.

So just know that if you have the baby abroad, it could have extremely serious consequences if you and Dogman don't last.

Dogs and babies do NOT mix. Any type of dog. I had four Goldies where my eldest was born and guess what, even though they’re Goldies and have never so much as barked or growled at a cat, I kept the dogs and my DD separate.

Please don’t be naive and think your dogs will automatically be okay, let alone a pitbull.

This isn’t quantum physics - any good mother (or father - although in this case it is mother) puts their child first, end of.

Get your dogs, get on a plane and leave him. Don't even tell him until you are back in the UK.

He is willing to risk his CHILD with a Pitbull with dementia that has a history of extreme aggression. That is not father material. The only hope you have not to endanger your child is to leave. Do it before the baby is born so you can leave the country.

That's right.

When I was a baby my family had to re-home a cocker spaniel because she was aggressive and jealous towards me.

Edited to remove random word.

You're the poster who posted many times about this move (to America right?) and your partner's pit bull and his terrible attitude and you were told that it wouldn't end well but did it anyway - you know this is going to end badly but you're there anyway. It's hard to fathom. This is not a man who listens to or respects your opinions.

He sounds incredibly stupid. What do you see in him? How can you even consider being with a man who puts his dog above his own child?

I am reading this as I feed my newborn and it’s made me feel sick. Perhaps this is your first child and so you don’t understand how truly defenceless they are, but if you are even considering still continuing your relationship with him let alone agreeing to his dog moving in, I really do worry for this baby’s future. It might sound harsh but the baby is more important than your feelings and definitely way more important than his.

There is no debate or negotiation to be had here the Dog has to go.
Your DH has to make a choice his Baby or his Dog, if he chooses the Dog then I'm afraid the Relationship is dead in the water.
I have no doubt whatsoever that this Dog will go for your Baby.