Is my husband an Incel?

[DiannaSpanna]

Hubby and I finally got round to watching Adolescence on Netflix this week.

When we finally finished we chatted for ages about it and at one point he asked what incel meant. So I explained it was involuntary celibacy and that it was guys who couldn't find a woman to sleep with. He joked "so married men?".

This got me prickly and I responded that it's different, but he thought about it for a bit and then made the point that if a husband wants sex and his wife doesn't, he's therefore involuntary celibate. I couldn't argue, as I got what he meant and he wasn't have a dig at me or women in general, just stating what it conjured up for him. But it got my back up all the same and I've not been able to stop thinking about it.

I know why. At the beginning of our relationship and marriage we had a very healthy sex life. He's great in bed, generous and still gorgeous. But after 3 kids, my body changing and generally mellowing, I don't really feel sexual desires anymore. And I'm happy with that. It feels right for me.

So I can't even remember the last time we had sex. It's definitely been over a year.

He's clearly still keen, flirts and tries it on from time to time. But I just don't feel like it. He never guilts or pressures me and is super respectful, but I can see it hurts him to be rejected. And he definitely seems less joyous than he used to and just generally deflated.

So I'm worried that I've made my husband an incel, if not in terms of red pill forums and Andrew Tate etc (he's not an idiot), but the feelings of sadness and resentment that come from being rejected.

When it comes to sex, I have all the control. He has none and has to wait for if and when I feel like it. Which is almost never anymore. When I put myself in his shoes, and if the situation were reversed, I would be angry and feel powerless.

So I find myself in a place where I really don't know what to do. I love him to bits and adore our life together, but I've changed and now he's got to live without something as fundamental as sex - through no fault of his own.

I don't know why I'm writing this here, but would love to know if anyone else is going through the same and if you have any advice.

@selffellatingouroborosofhate You don't accept the terms of the marriage contract, and that's cool. So don't get married. Or else make very sure to marry someone who is very well-matched with you, sex-drive-wise. I don't accept the marriage contract either, these days. I don't want the burden of officially being someone's only sexual option and they mine. If one or the other of you wants much more or less sex, you're in trouble. At least with a dating relationship, if your desires diverge, you can easily break up if the difference is too upsetting.

ETA: Can I ask what you would do, in OP's shoes? Imagine you're married and your spouse wants a lot more sex than you do. Ideals are all very well, but what would you actually do when faced with this situation?

Obviously no one should have sex when they're ill.

In OP's shoes, what I do would depend on my husband's ability to talk honestly and clearly about what he actually misses about sex.

Sex has more than one function. Biologically, it's for making kids. It can (for men, if not always women) also be a means to orgasm. It can be a means of feeling physically close and affectionate.

Those three things can all be accomplished without sex. Making kids can be done with artificial insemination, although a married couple is unlikely to use this method when sex is available. Masturbation (self or mutual) can give orgasms. Kissing and cuddling can give the physical affection.

One of the problems I've faced in straight relationships is that I end up feeling like I can't kiss and cuddle without it being (mis)interpreted as leading to sex. This has led to me avoiding kissing and cuddling unless I'm horny, even when I would like to kiss and cuddle. The women I've dated have been comfortable with a sofa snuggle being just that, so I've had more physical intimacy in my relationships with women than in the ones with men. You can imagine how surprised I was to read that some men value kisses and cuddles too and have sex primarily to obtain them!

This is why OP's DH needs to be honest about what function of sex he misses. If the cuddles have dried up and that's what he misses, that's a different conversation from "plz spread your legs more often so I can put my dick in you". Also, orgasming with OP's input doesn't have to mean orgasming inside OP. I don't orgasm at all easily, so all the orgasms I have with a partner are from me using my Hitachi wand on myself during post-sex cuddles, not from during sex. It's hence not a huge stretch for me to suggest that OP and her DH could cuddle and kiss whilst he masturbates.

But this discussion requires him having honesty and self-insight.

Agree with all that.

Most men want PIV though, so for them, all the alternatives you suggest are not going to cut it. Many men's sex drives are insane; they want PIV and lots of it. Without men's crazy drives, the human race would have died out, I guess!

Most men want PIV though

Given how PIV requires a woman's body to be invaded with all the cystitis and vaginismus and tearing risk and pregnancy risk involved, that's not IMO an area where compromise is possible. If that's what he wants specifically then they're realistically looking at divorce.

Yes, if OP doesn't see herself ever giving her husband enthusiastic consent again, then they will probably divorce. Pity sex or maintenance sex is not what most people want - most people want their partner to want them, not to just go along with sex.

I haven't experienced the issues you describe with PIV though. 😱 You make it sound awful!

Can I just say, PIV is bloody lovely? My favourite type of sex. You make it sound like something women have to endure!

Another here who loves PIV. It sounds like you’ve had a rough time with it, @selffellatingouroborosofhate but, unless I’ve missed it, OP hasn’t mentioned such difficulties. Also, as someone a bit prone to cystitis occasionally, I can confirm that peeing after sex seems to work as a preventative.

I love piv, no amount of kisses and cuddles can make up for it ( though I love this also). Honestly cannot wait to have it tonight!

It's not about 'consent'.

If one person doesn't want sex anymore, then they leave the marriage. It really is as simple as that.

People who get married have sex. It's the purpose of marriage.

Don't marry if you don't agree to sex.

You need to follow the thread or you look silly. I'm talking about needing consent for sex and people not being entitled to sex.

Some people are perfectly happy in a sexless relationship. If the other person isn't, then they can choose to leave.

I've tried peeing after sex and it didn't help. The only way I had a prayer of avoiding cystitis was by never having sex after about 3pm. Peeing once wasn't enough, I had to pee several times during the course of the afternoon and evening.

And all for something that is enjoyable for two minutes tops, then boring, and then uncomfortable, and then painful. I'm not alone either: the most popular reason why women fake orgasms is to try to get sex over and done with.

The purpose of marriage is to create a financial and legal union between two people. If you want sex, you can just install Tinder.

@selffellatingouroborosofhate - wow: that sounds rotten. Presumably you have also tried d-mannose. My experience of PIV is different from yours - it sounds like you’ve had shit lovers. But in any case, in your shoes, I probably would also not be a fan of PIV. Really sorry you’ve had such a rough time of it.

I think life is hard. There are always challenges and adversity, always. When is it ever smooth sailing? Mismatched sex drives are one of those things life can throw at you, which was maybe not apparent in the first years of a relationship. Yes, you can divorce, because you feel hard done by. Or coerce your partner into more sex then they are comfortable with. But what is true, real love for another? What is the ultimate higher purpose of marriage? I think it can mean sacrificing something you want because you love them, and being willing to put them first.. Most people want sex and that’s great. But you can also choose to not live according to your natural, animalistic urges, you know, if your partner feels differently. I think people tie up all kinds of things with their partner’s low drive like personal rejection, which isn’t always necessarily the truth of how their partner even feels about them. It just seems sad to throw everything else away that a person has to offer because of mismatched sex drives.

I don’t think you understand what an Incel is! Not even slightly

Nah, not shit lovers. One or two would be plausible, but over 30? The answer is at https://www.latimes.com/health/la-hew-ordistance11feb11-story.html My clit is miles from my vagina and my urethral opening is practically in my vagina's front edge, meaning that my clit gets nothing during PIV whilst my urethra has a cock rubbing across its opening and grinding bacteria into it with every thrust.

This is why I'm all about normalising non-PIV sex and the use of toys. No woman should feel inferior, broken, or like she's letting her partner down because PIV doesn't work for her.

Well, I don't get that. I have a forefinger length from vagina to clitoris, just measured, and have always been able to orgasm from PIV alone, with DH who is my second (and last) lover. In any position. DH is usually gentle as a lover, not a jackhammer fast pounding like I see in occasional porn videos. Also no violence, slapping, hair pulling or strangling in our sex lives. I think a lot of men are not very generous or kind lovers, and porn is a dreadful teaching manual.

There will be some women who defy the trend.

It wouldn't matter if I came in minutes every time, the cystitis makes me wary of PIV.

This really isn't about you and your cystitis, though I am sorry to hear about it. I think you need to start your own thread. Nowhere has OP said she has health problems from PIV.

OP, I think you have to be realistic. You are going to lose your husband over this at some point, in all likelihood. He will either cheat or leave.

There are no easy answers because of course you shouldn't have sex you don't want. But it's also not realistic to expect somebody to stay in a marriage when they want a regular sex life and their spouse doesn't.

An honest conversation is definitely needed.

I'm attempting to make the point that some women can't have sex. I'm also trying to make the point that women shouldn't need a reason, medical or otherwise, to say no. Men aren't entitled to women's bodies, end of. They are entitled to apply for a divorce.