Is my husband an Incel?

[DiannaSpanna]

Hubby and I finally got round to watching Adolescence on Netflix this week.

When we finally finished we chatted for ages about it and at one point he asked what incel meant. So I explained it was involuntary celibacy and that it was guys who couldn't find a woman to sleep with. He joked "so married men?".

This got me prickly and I responded that it's different, but he thought about it for a bit and then made the point that if a husband wants sex and his wife doesn't, he's therefore involuntary celibate. I couldn't argue, as I got what he meant and he wasn't have a dig at me or women in general, just stating what it conjured up for him. But it got my back up all the same and I've not been able to stop thinking about it.

I know why. At the beginning of our relationship and marriage we had a very healthy sex life. He's great in bed, generous and still gorgeous. But after 3 kids, my body changing and generally mellowing, I don't really feel sexual desires anymore. And I'm happy with that. It feels right for me.

So I can't even remember the last time we had sex. It's definitely been over a year.

He's clearly still keen, flirts and tries it on from time to time. But I just don't feel like it. He never guilts or pressures me and is super respectful, but I can see it hurts him to be rejected. And he definitely seems less joyous than he used to and just generally deflated.

So I'm worried that I've made my husband an incel, if not in terms of red pill forums and Andrew Tate etc (he's not an idiot), but the feelings of sadness and resentment that come from being rejected.

When it comes to sex, I have all the control. He has none and has to wait for if and when I feel like it. Which is almost never anymore. When I put myself in his shoes, and if the situation were reversed, I would be angry and feel powerless.

So I find myself in a place where I really don't know what to do. I love him to bits and adore our life together, but I've changed and now he's got to live without something as fundamental as sex - through no fault of his own.

I don't know why I'm writing this here, but would love to know if anyone else is going through the same and if you have any advice.

Ugh, I wish we could retire the phrase "broken home." Homes with two parents can be broken too, if the marriage is unhappy, regardless of whether the parents live together!

How old is your youngest child?
What is the division of labour like in your house?
How much time do you each have for hobbies?

Good sex starts in the head. To want sex you have to feel like a sexual being. Small children, washing your husband’s underpants, and never having any ‘me time’, make it very challenging to feel like that.

Agree; low testosterone can cause all sorts of problems. It's very bad for health in a number of ways apart from lowering sex drive.

Yeah, weirdly mine has increased too!

I reported that post so I don't know why it's still showing.

I can imagine it does sound contradictory to someone not educated on the subject. And I don’t need to go any further into it thank you. My husband knows as he has sat in many drs offices with me and has held my handled whilst I’ve sobbed in agony.
This post however is not about me so I don’t wish to derail. Take care

I'm hoping you are not married because you are expected (and should have been asked if you ) understand the nature of the vows you are saying and signed to say that you have said.

Those vows include that you will have sex with your spouse. It works both ways.

There is such a thing as rape within marriage as I'm sure you know but you vow to have sex and enter into a give and take arrangement over everything else as well. It is literally what you agree to.

Thank you for this x

It's a legitimate reason to.

A regular orgasm is a great antidepressant.

😂😂😂😂😂 at the idea of men giving women orgasms. Most women do not orgasm from vaginal penetration alone.

The promise of sex is literally written into the marriage contract.

If he knows you're grinning and bearing it and fucks you anyway, you should leave. 🤮

No it's not. Go on, find it in https://www.family-lawfirm.co.uk/blog/what-does-marriage-mean-legally/

I'll wait.

It definitely is, although I wouldn't be telling people! Too personal.

It is. When you say. "With my body, I thee honour" that is what it means. When you get married, you are counselled regarding this to make you you understand this and all the other vows and what they mean because the registrar or officiant has to hear the vows and sign to say you gave them freely and that you understood what they meant. You sign to state this also.

Reluctant pity sex isn't "honouring" someone with your body. It's contemptuous of them and yourself.

How is the man, who knows his wife doesn't want sex but puts his penis in her anyway, honouring her? He isn't!

Couples who marry at the registry office can and do write their own vows and do not always use that element of the (actually not Anglican, https://www.churchofengland.org/life-events/your-church-wedding/planning-your-ceremony/wedding-vows I just checked and it's not there. Are you Catholic?) religious vows. My sister didn't

He isn't but the DH of the OP on this thread is NOT doing that. She has stated that very very clearly.

He does have the right to have sex though and OP is trying to negotiate that in a very intelligent and empathic way.

Rigid black and white thinking, using emotive terms is not helping her.

If you have a religious ceremony, it IS written in the vows. They say "with my body I honour you" and "forsaking all others" and "keep myself only unto you." What does that mean if not promising a sex life??

If you have a civil ceremony, your vows can say what you like.

However, even with a civil ceremony, the promise of sex is inferred simply by getting married, because you are promising to be faithful to each other and reject all others. And the entire purpose of those vows is that they apply to sex. After all, you're not promising not to ever go to the cinema with anyone else, are you?!

Of COURSE you don't promise to say yes to every advance in the moment when you get married, but you ARE promising a sex life overall, since marriage prevents your spouse from having it with anyone else.

That is what society understands marriage to be about, among other things like companionship and raising children, of course.

If you don't think that marriage involves the promise of sex, you're very much an outlier.

If someone cannot accept that marriage comes with the responsibility to have sex sometimes, they should not get married.

He doesn't have a right to sex. No one does. Marriage does not change that.

https://www.churchofengland.org/life-events/your-church-wedding/planning-your-ceremony/wedding-vows

'I, (name), take you, (name)
to be my wife/husband,
to have and to hold
from this day forward;
for better, for worse,
for richer, for poorer,
in sickness and in health,
to love and to cherish,
till death us do part,
according to God’s holy law.
In the presence of God I make this vow.'

Nothing about honouring with my body, nothing about having sex.

You don't help people by spreading misinformation about what marriage vows actually entail. You don't help people by claiming a non-existent right to sex.

I agree. What kind of man enjoys that kind of reluctant sex? Not one I would want to be married to. Good men only enjoy sex that's met with enthusiastic consent. Anything less is assault.

It's not in the Anglican vows. I have just posted them.

When we consider that "in sickness and in health" is in the vows and some people cannot have sex for medical reasons, it's very clear that there isn't a right to sex because it would be in direct conflict with the obligation to support a spouse who becomes too ill to have sex.

This thread has attracted some right weirdos. You don't promise to give up consent upon marriage.

For many, sex simply isn't possible and for others their feelings can change.

As the OP says, she no longer desires sex. Many people have a lower sex drive as they grow older.

You don't demand your conjugal rights and wave your marriage certificate around if your spouse doesn't want sex. No one is entitled to sex.

If someone is too immature and self absorbed to realise that people can change during a relationship, they shouldn't get married. You come across as a hectoring bully.

@selffellatingouroborosofhate

Reluctant pity sex isn't "honouring" someone with your body. It's contemptuous of them and yourself.

Sure, but the point being made here is that the promise of sex IS in the marriage vows. It's answering to your assertion that there is no such promise.

How is the man, who knows his wife doesn't want sex but puts his penis in her anyway, honouring her? He isn't!

Putting your unwelcome penis in your wife is a different thing to what we're discussing, which is the overall promise of a sex life that's inherent in marriage. Of course no one has to say yes to any particular sex request, married or not. But if they never want to have sex with their spouse, you have to ask why not, since they did grab that person all for themselves by marrying them.

If you tell someone that they cannot have sex with anyone else, which is what you are saying when you marry, you have to sometimes have sex with them yourself, otherwise it's deeply unfair! Pretty much everyone understands this except you, @selffellatingouroborosofhate.

If you can't accept that sex is a part of marriage, don't marry. Even worse, it's very often a very regular, frequent part of marriage!

The sex thing is a major reason why I wouldn't marry again. Many men want sex a lot, like multiple times a week, and I don't want the responsibility of satisfying someone's sex drive. It's easy to say that it's not my responsibility, but it plays out very differently when you have a sulky husband on your hands because he wants it three times a week when you're happy with twice a month. If your husband isn't satisfied sexually, you're probably going to suffer for it in some way. No thanks. Plus, marriage and the sexual expectations that most husbands have takes away the spontaneity and the erotic-ness.

the point being made here is that the promise of sex IS in the marriage vows.

Except that it isn't in the marriage vows. I've posted the Anglican marriage vows and it's just not there. It's not there in law either.

If you tell someone that they cannot have sex with anyone else, which is what you are saying when you marry

In fact, the Anglican vows don't even say "forsaking all others".

I'd love to know just how many of the "right to sex in marriage" bunch are married and are apparently ignorant of the vows you made?