Married to someone with Asperger's/ASD/ND: support thread 15

[BustyLaRoux]

New thread.
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This thread is for those of us seeking to explore the dynamics of long term relationships with our ND partners. Some of us are ND ourselves, very many of us have ND children. It is a support thread, and a safe space, it does get emotional at times. Avoid sweeping generalisations if possible, try and keep it specific to you and your partner.
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It's complicated and it's emotional.
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The old thread is here.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/relationships/5245372-married-to-someone-with-aspergersasdnd-support-thread-14?page=39&reply=143014416

@Peppasparty im sure you know your mum! If she’s never demonstrated empathy surely she doesn’t have it?
Therapy training has almost as a mantra the belief in the individual’s capacity for change. Which is usually, often, not always maybe, true. But for some the change is at snail’s pace over many years and in the meantime people are being hurt.
My husband proclaims loudly and assertively that’s he’s “a very compassionate man”. When I say I don’t see it in him and he doesn’t express it, he replies “I don’t need to express it”!

I sometimes think that the problem is us with our expectations of what a mum/partner etc should be. We don’t feel happy, fulfilled and we want our family members to do something about this. But this is who they are and how they are wired. They aren’t what we want so instead of accepting this we try and change them. Most of the time they are happy. I know my own mum doesn’t sit mopping at home worried about me. She’s busy with her projects happy as Larry and I’m the one sad that I have no connection with her. They aren’t wired for a life of connections with humans. We try and force this and I wonder if this just pushes them further into isolation as they just can’t do this. I know I’m disappointed in my mum and so are my kids beginning to be.

Narcissists have no empathy peppasparty and the more I read about your mother she could well have this form of untreated and untreatable personality disorder. Your description of her tallies a lot with the ones people write about on the long series of the well we took you to Stately Homes threads.

She isn’t nasty she just lives in a little bubble. No one directly affects her. A familys dog died recently and we are all sad for them, we’ve all had dogs and know the feeling. My mum is like how does this dog dying affect her, it’s not her dog. She isn’t connected to anyone in an emotional way.

That is exactly how narcissists behave; they are really in their own little bubble world with she being at the centre of her own universe. The rest of you are bit part players to her life. As you write emo one directly affects her (all the people in authority she was actually afraid of have long since died off).

I wonder if therapists sometimes give people the benefit of the doubt and they think that if we change the way we do something they will effect change in our partners.

They do because, if you remove ND, bring a narcissist etc.., often people in a couple trigger each other and bring the worst out of each other.
So when one change the way they behave, it has a knock on impact on the way the other person reacts.

In some ways, it’s also the line followed by some autism advocates. That you need to change your behaviour/environment to avoid triggering the autistic person and therefore avoid the ‘hurtful’ behaviour.
So you dint want to put too much demands on your dh (or you need to learn how to phrase things…) because it triggers his demand avoidance/sensitivity and then put him in overwhelm and leads to shouting.

I think the difference is that in the first (usual) case, you expect BOTH people to change. It’s just that one person is making the first step.
But in the second, there is only person who ever changes/does the work

That’s like a child parent relationship not an intimate relationship. I can imagine it feeling like you are their parent and that can’t feel nice. We aren’t always able to be in control ourselves so it’s inevitable that triggers will be set off. I had a friend with I’m sure BPD, she was so scared of being left, she was so clingy and drove all her boyfriends mad. You have to do something you can’t expect one person to tread on eggshells because of past trauma or mental illness. But then I guess it’s hard when you don’t know anything is wrong.

I just read again what was said about therapy. So they tell you not to trigger the asd person because they cant control the reaction. I thought that walking on eggshells because you are afraid of someone was abusive. So the therapist is telling the other person to second guess every single thing that comes out of their mouth or everything they do just in case. Isn’t that exactly what people being abused do? Surely they know that is going to cause mental health issues for that person. A narcissist can’t help being a narcissist but you wouldn’t tell a person to enable them to keep them happy.

I hadn’t thought about it like this but yes to that too.

When my counsellor at the time said something along those lines, my answer was that secong guessing like this was exactly what autistic people say is so hard to do (because they don’t quite get how our NT mind works) so why am I being asked to do the same thing in reverse (trying to guess what’s happening in his ASD mind)? Because if it’s really hard and actually somehow impossible for them then its also the case the other way around?
I had a blank and a very judgemental look…

(And no she didn’t stay my counsellor for much longer afterwards).

And yes I also think it’s putting us in a mother role. I felt that acutely and hated tbh.

Sounds like a very complicated situation. We want them to think like us and they want us to think like them. Why? Because I can’t think like my mum and she can’t think like me and the consequence is we have zero connection. My god do I wish it were different and I’ve tried for a long time but we are born like this. Why do people force relationships that aren’t there and go to therapy to change the other person instead of accepting who they are? I guess it would be different if the person with the diversity was seeking therapy for their own self improvement. Don’t we stay with a partner that we connect to and let those others go. I can’t change my mum but you can change relationships.

Moulding yourself to suit another person comes with a huge cost. It doesn’t matter if your doing it because of abuse or because of an ASD partners needs.
Is it really a partnership if one person takes on the responsibility of making everything okay for the other and if they don’t do this they face the fall out from the dysregulation that occurs.

Honestly being with my ex nearly broke me. I couldn’t shut down my emotions, wants and needs anymore in the desperate hope to prevent him getting angry.

The final straw for me in therapy was when I brought up that he could control himself perfectly well around others and she launched into a patronising speech about masking. I said if he was able to mask around others he was able to mask around me, I wasn’t a punch bag. She started down the predictable script of unmasking and safe people.

I looked at him in his business suit. I thought about his successful big job and how he managed hundreds of people and had never raged at anyone. But here we were with me being told he was significantly disabled and the punch line was the only person affected by his disability was me. It was like a spell had been broken and I laughed out loud at the absurdity of what was being said.

My exh knew that I was at the end of the line. Over the next few months he morphed into an attentive caring husband. I used his therapists words back to him to tell him I wanted a divorce because his disability, pda, incapacity for change meant the marriage wasn’t sustainable.

What really is the difference between dysregulation from asd and one from abuse? Why is one acceptable and one not? That sounds like terrible advice. I stay away from my own mum really, well it’s just happened. I would be expected to talk about her and her projects and none of us are interested because it’s not returned. I can’t believe that therapists teach this.

I have managed to miss this thread and think I should be on it. DH (married nearly 17 years) is looking to get a dx of ADHD, possibly autism too. DS was diagnosed with inattentive ADHD about 5 years ago, which made DH realise he almost certainly had ADHD as well looking at his own past.

It might be the explanation of why, since he got into more managerial roles, he just doesn't seem to be able hold down a job and short-term contract work is doing better for him. He is also looking to maybe go back to his original type of role where he's not in leadership while he builds up funds to launch his own product - because working for himself might be the best answer.

I WFH as well, as far as I can tell it's not that he loses his rag and shouts at people or anything, but I think he can get very 'intense' sometimes on details that don't matter to other people, which makes them feel uncomfortable and combined with quite a 'big' personality I think that can cause problems.

Also it's a bad combo with DS who, unlike DH at school, who was very high achieving, has difficulty with learning. DH has a lot of difficulty dealing with this, it makes him very anxious DS might not get good GCSE results (I think that's OK as long as you plan ahead for options) and that can manifest as anger. We've had some very good counselling sessions about this on NHS and are awaiting some more. They have been quite eye opening for him both about himself and DS.

It doesn’t matter if your doing it because of abuse or because of an ASD partners needs.

Gir what I can gather, it’s supposed to not be as painful if you know that it wasn’t meant to be hurtful. The intentions are different.
And yes I found that with dh. That I’ve deep down his intentions are not bad. He doesn’t mean to hurt.
But on the receiving end, it still hurt. I’m not sure there is a huge difference

That I suppose is the sadness of it all. Does my mum mean to cause this much hurt, I don’t doubt her intention is not to hurt me, she is quite blissfully unaware. But it still hurts. Being shouted at is still loud and scary, being ignored is still lonely and made me feel worthless in the past. Being passed up for hobbies, avoiding birthdays and special moments still hurt. We still hurt despite them not intending us to. I know I can’t stop feeling like I’ve missed out and disappointed at her. Her asd kind of made her a rubbish mum who has no idea who we are and no care to. I could say then that asd can sometimes make for rubbish relationships all around. We can try and make it sound better because they can’t help it and we don’t want to hurt them but they are rubbish weak connections.

I think it’s even worse for children.
Children are not equipped to think and say ‘oh this person has xyz and therefore they don’t mean it and it’s ok’.
Children just see dad is shouting. Mum doesn’t hug me. They feel the deep loss of connexion and the loneliness. They feel the fact Theyre not supported. They don’t see ASD. They developmentally can’t.

Peppasparty

Why are you assuming ASD at all re your mother. You could well be barking up the wrong tree here.

You however have two qualities your mother lacks - empathy and insight.

I think everyone has a breaking point. We can only tolerate so much. I think knowing they can’t help it and understanding why it’s happening does mean we (me) can tolerate more than we might if they were just an abusive asshole. But there surely comes a point when allowances aside, we reach the end of the rope. The rope got longer when I realised he was autistic. I clung on. I made allowances, I changed myself, I accepted a lot. But the rope will have an end for many of us. We made too many allowances. We were shamed by counsellors who should have known better. Or we tried in vain to change them. We fought against it. We lost ourselves. We made ourselves ill. We should have let go of that rope a long time ago. But we didn’t.

👏👏 @BustyLaRoux

Not been on the thread for a while as I realised I was starting to project onto DH some of the behaviours I was reading about on here so needed a bit of space. But today has broken me. Potentially outing but I’m past caring.

Today is my birthday. Woke up, DH gave me a card ‘one minute you’re young and fun and the next you’re getting excited about air fryers’. I mean, I get the sentiment but both DH and I have expressed how we’re not keen on them (horses for courses, just not our bag - I love cooking so that would take away my fun!). So a bit odd. He then reminded me to post his Mother’s Day card.

We’re in the middle of having renovation work done and the dining room is out of bounds, so whilst I was in the shower DH had got the camping table out for the kids breakfast I queried why he had used the tiny unstable one instead of the newer more sturdy one:
DH: this is the only one we have
DS9: I told you it wasn’t daddy
Me: no, the other ones in the garage
DH: shouts WELL HOW AM I SUPPOSED TO KNOW THERES ANOTHER TABLE (?!) and storms off.

thoroughly fed up by this point I followed him and told him I was not prepared to be spoken to like that, especially in front of the kids and (not proud of this bit) maybe if he got his head out of his backside for 5 minutes he’d see how much effort we all expend managing his emotions.

on my way to work he was sending all apologetic messages saying he knows his behaviour isn’t rational etc etc and I said I was used to it but was more concerned about the impact it was having on the kids. He then said he didn’t want me to have to ‘get used to it’. Anyway. Nice day at work, CFO took me for lunch, got a couple of small gifts from friends.

Get home and he proudly takes my hand and says come with me. He then presents me with a small bunch of Lidl roses (still with the price on) and some Kit Kat eggs. This is my birthday present. For clarity, we are not hard up at all.

Apparently my Christmas present of a meal out at a restaurant with a totally uninspiring menu (I had two starters as the mains were a bit meh) and an overnight stay in a bog standard hotel room where he mainly watched TV was also my birthday present. Except he neglected to tell me this until today,

Ive learnt to expect so little but even this hurt. I’m not asking for grand gestures but for Christs sake a little thought wouldn’t go amiss. A book I like, a nice bottle of wine, just something with more thought than stopping off at the supermarket he passes on his way home.

So now I’m in the bath feeling under appreciated, pretty pathetic and with a sudden sense of why my self esteem is through the floor.

Sorry, that was long but really needed to get it out and am too ashamed to tell anyone in real life (and comically as I don’t want anyone to think badly of him)

Welcome back @TwinklyTornadoBear ! Yep that’s shit. I think try to reframe it if you can. The lack of thought and effort isn’t a sign of appreciation (or lack of). It’s just that some people are utterly utterly shit at presents. My (autistic) dad is exactly like this. He will not think of a present to buy someone ever. Every present can only be bought via a link. Sent to him by the recipient (or their parent if for a child). He will harangue the recipient with daily reminders for his link if one is not forthcoming. (Difficult for those of us with birthdays around Xmas as all ideas are shared with family members and one runs out of ideas and wishes someone would just take a little initiative!). Anyway he will accept non-Amazon links, but the recipient will be subjected to lengthy monologues about how difficult it’s been to register on non-Amazon website, how delivery was a problem/expensive, how he’s now being bombarded with adverts, etc. (Nothing like someone complaining most strenuously about how awful it’s been for them to get your gift!). Then having wrapped it (cheapest wrapping paper money can buy), the recipient will then be harangued some more about when he can drop it off. Or better still, could you come and collect it yourself as it’s quite out of his way to drop it off and he’s rather busy. To which I usually reply “gosh, dad, there really is nothing like buying someone a present that involves zero thought AND zero effort eh?!” Which of course goes completely over his head. One year my mum got a travel iron for Xmas. Dear Lord. Why she didn’t leave then I don’t know! But for him: Box ticked. Present transaction completed.

Some people simply don’t get that’s it’s nice giving someone a gift that you’ve thought about. It’s nice watching them open it and seeing they're really touched. It makes the recipient feel special and cared for. It makes the giver feel happy they’ve made the recipient happy. It’s a genuine heartwarming experience. Completely alien to some people. Giving a gift is no more than ticking a job off the list of chores. So sad. But it isn’t you. It’s isn’t that they don’t love you. In their own way. They are just royally shit at birthdays (Xmas, etc).

But I’m not trying to minimise your hurt feelings. Of course it’s still enough to make you sad. You deserve better. Happy birthday. I hope you can salvage something. Can you insist he take you to lunch at the weekend (your choice, he pays)? I know it’s not the same. But perhaps better than the token effort he made today…

Hope you don't mind another newbie, but I read half of the thread and saw so many similarities with my dad (and an ex - very Freudian!) I felt I needed to watch and contribute.

My dad lives alone, refuses to cook or clean, has months where he becomes reclusive, sleeping all day - says it is "a bit of black dog" but won't actually admit depression or talk to anyone, hates spending money to the point he refuses to have the boiler on, which means he doens't wash, won't get hair cut for cost reasons so looks like a yeti as a result. Expects me to cut hair and cook for him and wash bedding (which he brings on the train rather than a change of clothes in his backpack) and demands I wash and dry his clothes while he has a long (over 1 hr) hot bath in my house. If I cook it is never nice enough, even if he eats seconds he will complain about something. Eats whole loaves of bread and entire pots of marmite in one morning sitting, will leave dripping marmite knife on counter, crumbs in mostly empty (was new) marmite, crumbs over every surface possible. Will walk in dog muck about 90% of the time he leaves the house. Never sure if this is by design because he laughs at my "no shoes" policy (largely came about because of aforementioned issue) and enjoys walking it through the house - particularly stair treads where he will obviously scrape the sole on the ridge to get maximum mum/dog muck onto the carpet. Frequently breaks things like lamps, plugs, chargers, latches, door handles. Will turn off important things like my boiler, thermostat, plugs for the fridge (apparently was making a humming noise) then get cross with me if I complain. Never bothered with me as a kid, no clue which exams or degree I did yet now acts as if I owe everything to his amazing parenting and that is why I am a great parent to my daughter. His only grandchild who he would cross over a busy road suddenly without holding her hand on the way into town when she was in Primary school. Does everyone else's walk out into a road expecting everything to stop? Running off in town (well over 6ft so when he speeds up it becomes like a run) so that we loose him then don't know whether to stay where we are or keep going, because he is unlikely to even notice we are gone... Urgh.
Sorry for the ramble, but YES! I completely get it.

My mum managed 8 years with him (she was told she couldn't have kids so I was a surprise that she tried to stick it out for) but always used to say he had the memory of an elephant - thinking to OP saying that they bring up the ONE time you say something and quote it back to you verbatim with exact time/date/year clearly imprinted on their memory. Yet when it comes to the weekly things they say on repeat, no file found...

Hello @HmmLikeAVillager and welcome! My goodness. Your dad sounds like a challenge!! He sounds VERY autistic (is that a thing? Can one say that without causing offence?). To the point where has lost any ability to self reflect at all. I mean, even partners and parents on here do seem to have some ability to reflect. I doubt they would walk dog mess into someone’s house and scrape it off their shoe on their stair carpet deliberately. (My dad does also seem to walk in dog muck several times a week. How is it possible!? Other people look where they’re going! Does he seek it out??! Or does it somehow find him? His front door opens right onto the pavement and he’s often stepped out the door and onto a turd! He makes angry signs about it and posts on local neighbourhood groups, such that I now think people encourage their dogs to make their deposit outside his door as they pass by, by way of revenge!!)

Anyway, I digress….. most autistic people wouldn’t do the muck scraping on your carpets. The taking baths at your house and eating all your food. This seems akin to selfish teenage behaviour. I’ve often said I think my DP has not developed passed the teenage emotional development stage. The sense of entitlement. The desire to save themselves money by using your hot water and eating your food. That’s fine as your needs aren’t a feature he would consider. Clearly! Though again I don’t think any of the autistic people I know would do that. They do seem to have learnt some social rules along the way. Sounds like your dad has learnt none!

Out of interest why do you allow him in your house? Is it time to pull back from the “relationship” maybe? I do feel for you. He sounds incredibly hard work.