Dress shamed on dates

[rubberduck68]

I am mid-fifties and OLD. I have been on the receiving end of a comments about how I dress, all implying that I am not dressed up enough. I like jeans, and trousers. I wear good quality ones, on trend (or so my daughter tells me!), good tops, nice jackets, I'm a trainers and Chelsea Boots fan, don't do heels. Own one smart black dress, wore it for a funeral two years ago, and have a couple of summer ones that I pull out when it's scorching. Last night went to Bills for dinner. Bills is low-key, it's a chain, we ate burgers, I wore good jeans, a vintage Bella Freud jumper, some boots, hair and make-up effort was applied. He said, "I thought we'd be dressing up." This has happened to me a fair bit since OLD, never happened when I was younger and dressed the same. Is it just men of this age who expect women to show up in high heels and skirts/dresses? We had a polite debate about it, and he asked me what I'd wear if he took me (I know, I know) to a wedding, and I replied that the last wedding I went to I wore a fitted waistcoat with nothing underneath, wide legged linen trousers, and lots of cool jewellery and got loads of compliments. He pulled a face. A face!! Anyone else dress shamed on dates? Is it their age? Am I out of touch with what to wear on dates? Brutal honesty welcome!

Your grandparents are in their 60s and can't accept that trousers can be 'dressed up'

Aren't yet still...in the workplace and stuff? They sound like they exist in the 50s!

Oh and re the above (too late for me to edit) - I am 99 percent confident that no other woman has ever been jealous of my appearance ever, which makes my DH's comment even more amusing 😆 Have just realised that my post could have been read as some sort of poorly disguised 'stealth brag' when it really wasn't meant to be...

This cuts both ways. I was with a guy for a few months and 'dressed up' to meet his friends for a night out. Nothing fancy or jaw dropping, just a step up from my normal look.

I found out afterwards that all his friends told him he was 'punching'. I figured they were complimenting him, which I still think they were. Just being nice about me, rather than drooling all over me iyswim. But that night was the beginning of the end of our relationship. Once he realised that other men looked at me favourably, he tried to ban me from dressing up, going out, chatting to people in the supermarket queue.... it was awful. His own low self esteem meant he took it to mean everyone thought I was out of his league and it was only a matter of time before I cheated.

By the end I even had random accusations that I was on adultwork (this was before Only Fans). It was such a shame in many ways that he couldn't just be proud to have me as a girlfriend, but it was fast becoming a dark and miserable relationship so I had to end it.

I now don't entertain any comments on my outfit or looks beyond a cursory 'you look nice' on dates.

This sounds really awful. I'm sorry you had to go through this and glad that you did get out - I think a lot of women end up stuck with some version of this. It is hard for us to win when we can be accused of looking too good as easily as being accused of not having made enough effort.

I agree. I dated a guy a few years ago who used to love the fact I always scrubbed up well when we went out and loved the compliments I got. Until after a period, he got fed up with people saying how nice I looked and told me I was only doing it for attention - wtf???

This was a red flag and I started seeing other things that showed me he was a jealous insecure man with control issues that he’d hidden for first part of relationship- not uncommon it seems.

Of course, as soon as we split I was accused of cheating and that 'must be' why I dumped him, and I was making sure I was 'free to sleep with as many men as i wanted without guilt'. Women really can't win.

Not to make the thread even more depressing but the actions of Kyle Clifford struck me. Cheating with multiple women in the same day, at a wedding he was at with his girlfriend. He was still seeing one of them at the time of the murders. Yet he was enraged at the idea that poor Louise might be looking at men on fucking Instagram. She dumped him because he cheated and because he was abusive. His actions. He was happily shagging around now single but still saw Louise as his possession. These double standards start small and make lighthearted threads like the OP but they can and do escalate.

I found out afterwards that all his friends told him he was 'punching'. I figured they were complimenting him, which I still think they were. Just being nice about me, rather than drooling all over me iyswim. But that night was the beginning of the end of our relationship. Once he realised that other men looked at me favourably, he tried to ban me from dressing up, going out, chatting to people in the supermarket queue.... it was awful. His own low self esteem meant he took it to mean everyone thought I was out of his league and it was only a matter of time before I cheated.

This, in absolute spades. My ex was the same, right down to his mates telling him he was “punching above his weight”. I genuinely think he started trying to break me down so I couldn’t leave, rather than making it so I didn’t want to. And he too started getting funny with what I wore when I went out - why did I need to wear heels any more? Or dress up at all? Was I looking for someone else?

And YY to the poster whose partner admitted to wanting to show off to other men. Without wanting to sound like I’m blowing my own trumpet Samantha Brick-style, I’ve absolutely had men treat me like a prize to be won and then shown off to other men. Fuck that shit.

I haven’t dated for years because I really cannot be doing with fragile male egos or men who can’t cope with a smart independent woman. Why don’t these men see that instead of whining that they can’t find a partner? Except they don’t want a true partner, do they? They want a trophy, sex doll and housekeeper all rolled into one.

I forget how many weirdos are out there!
I'm always amazed at men not being proud that their wife/ partner/ gf gets compliments and they see it as a slight against them or that it means there partner is going to run off with someone else.

They are absolutely bonkers. I'm a jeans trainers and t shirts kind of person,( well currently black wide leg trousers and t shirt and trainers) but I love a compliments from dh as we are ready to out on a night out and he tells me I look lovely. He's a good secure well rounded bloke. I struggle to understand the nastiness of some men for no reason at all.

Another one, same age. Also a relative (I have awesome relatives..). Filthy rich, just widowed, dating again, looking for a partner. Who needs to be: YOUNG (up to 35), no kids, slim, beautiful, 'take care of herself' (heels, bodycons, that sort of thing). He's very wealthy, so sadly doesn't lack women matching his description and even younger. Yet they're no good, because he ALSO with all the above, wants a wealthy woman. I asked him, why would a young, beautiful, childless, rich woman date a bald, overweight, 60 year old? No reply.

I've chopped out this specific paragraph from your post, @BetterDeadThanRed, as this resonated with me. It's rhetoric I've often seen online, in particular in the comments section of a certain right-wing rag whose vox pop is very revealing of the way some men think. I find it a fascinating window into the worldviews of those who in any offline context I stay the hell away from.

To them, women are commodities who can be bought. The only things that interest us in this world are money and materiality. We are robotic window dressings and gods forbid we have minds of our own: that we might actually prefer spending money on books than fake nails and beauty treatments, and that we live for shoes and designer handbags (I live in DMs and cart a Mountain Warehouse backpack around with me as they are so much more practical).

Hence he wants a wealthy woman to reassure himself that all she's after isn't just his money - whereas, in fact, he's relegated women into that narrow criterion all by himself. But if she doesn't want his money, what could a chauvinist like this possibly have to offer her? There's a saying somewhere along the lines of 'there is nothing like the confidence of a middle-aged, middle-of -the-road, mediocre man'.

He is far from alone in his attitude. It's all worryingly transactional. To view women as commodities to be bought and sold is only a small step away from using women's bodies as a paid-for business service. And we all know what we think of men like these.

Some of them will get the biggest shock in the world when, or if, they ever realise that you can't buy everything.

Very interesting. This has reminded me why I will not do OLD. I consider myself smart and independent and not doing too badly financially! I am divorced. I don’t want to be anyone’s property or cash cow. My default mode of dressing is jeans and jumper. I will dress up if the occasion requires it but NO heels, ever, too bad for my feet! I have a decent new car and my teeth are straight! I don’t want some balding car salesman with bad breath judging my photo on any dating sites and putting me down. I don’t want to be negged! I tried OLD for one month. None of them were attractive. I am most of all attracted to a man’s personality and a sense of humour. How can you tell about that by looking at photos? I would like a meaningful relationship with an equal partner in life but I know I won’t achieve it now in my late 50s and frankly I couldn’t be bothered with the in between dating stage. No thank you.

I agree with you. I do think it's fair to point out as well though that this sort of commodification isn't limited to how men see women... or at least, a lot of men don't THINK it just goes this way. The self-help stuff out there for men around how to attract women - either just for sex or as potential stable girlfriends - is largely based on the assumption that women are constantly assessing men's worth. Men are then advised to increase their worth, or at least the image of their worth, in various ways, ranging from materialistic things like maximising your earning potential and improving clothes and grooming through to improving sexual technique... and sometimes leading to more unpleasant advice around power games you can play to show 'dominace'. I'm not sure how much of the advice out there for lonely men is based on cultivating a great personality - in fact sometimes being dependable and loving gets painted as a weakness that will lead to women taking advantage of you. We are painted as the materialistic status-obsessed ones who need to be impressed or tricked or dominated.

A lot of the Jordan Peterson stuff centres on encouraging men to have meaningful lives and to look after themselves physically and mentally so that they are capable of being responsible partners and fathers. I know his work is controversial for many reasons and he is often viewed as a misogynist but I still see him as representing the more positive end of the field.

Personally the partners I have had have been those I felt there was a connection with in terms of shared interests and some sort of shared wavelength. I was much younger then and nobody had anything much in terms of assets - but I was still the one with a lot more potential, as it turns out! So I wasn’t going after them for their money - which is how men seem to be taught it is. I never wanted a man for his money. I have my own. But now I am older and established I would want at least a financial equal. No cocklodgers! No way.

"He's very wealthy, so sadly doesn't lack women matching his description and even younger." Do women really date these terrible men for their money any more? Or is that just a delusion that these men cling onto because they have nothing else going for them? NB: I avoid all signs of "wealthy" on dating apps; shiny sports cars, yachts, and words that flex how financially superior they are. I am sure there are some wealthy men who are nice, but the playboy aspirations that wafts from some of these old men on apps is just grim.

I didn't read it as a "stealth brag" at all. Thanks for chatting to your DH about it, and for his honesty in replying. I think that a lot of men perhaps buy into the "arm candy" school of thought; you are who you date kind of thing, but of course he's in awareness about it and decent enough to feel humility for admitting it! My recent ex BF would call me "bird", and I didn't like it. Even after I said I didn't like it, he kept doing it (I know, I know), and although it was in a kind of cheeky-chappy way, it was my own octogenarian dad who said, "well, it's from "dolly bird", as in "dolled up" or "doll", so you're arm candy if you're okay with that. Really made me think. Also, we were having a chat one day (me and the BF) about what super powers we'd want and he said "mind reading", so he could hear men say, "what's that hot bird doing with him?" Meant as a compliment. It landed so wrong with me... like upside down wrong. He would also say if I asked if I could help in the kitchen, etc. "No, you just sit there and look pretty." I felt objectified. He was otherwise an intelligent man. It didn't last.

It’s revolting - the judging of women as arm candy. I am SO much happier alone!

You're describing my misspent youth!

The op sounds very stylish and the dates sound very clueless. My dp often tells me I look good wearing jeans, Chelsea boots, blazers. I don't wear heels and if it's a dress or skirt it's with trainers or chunky boots.

He was negging you and the date was at Bills! Hardly a dressy kind of place.

The last time I went there I wore jeans. We both looked (because we were) exhausted and it was just something quick to save cooking.

Expecting you to dress up my arse.

A nice turn of ankle??!! Could you be anymore old fashioned? 🙄

Apologies - ignore this ! I've just read your update

haha, it just occurred to me, perhaps OP's response should have been, "well, Ithink it's nice when a man takes someone a lady somewhere nice the first time they go out together. I guess we'r eboth a bit disappointed".

Reminds me of the film "As good as it gets" with jack Nicholson and Helen Hunt. They go out for a date. He isn't wearing a tie and possibly not a jacket. He gets annoyed when they tell him about it and says that Helen is wearing a "housecoat!"

If he wants you to up your wardrobe he needs to up where he takes you!!!

Well, I have a date tomorrow so I am busy planning my wardrobe... Not really. I'll be wearing my All Saints BDJ Jaya baggy turn-up jeans –a black jumper, new black trainers and my And/Or herringbone boyfriend jacket. I like these clothes, love the clash of the tartan turn-up jeans and the herringbone jacket, importantly I feel comfortable in them. This thread has empowered me to be me. Thank you all. I'll let you know how it goes, BUT if he makes a snarky comment about my clothes I am just going to get up and walk out, not even talk.

Or maybe women can just wear what the hell she likes? Being taken somewhere nicer/more expensive still doesn’t give a man the right to dictate a woman’s clothing.

You go, girl!
I love the sound of your style. Mine is a similar but more muted version, but I'm tempted to ramp it up a notch in your honour.

Absolutely!!