Married to someone with Asperger's/ASD/ND: support thread 14

[Daftasabroom]

New thread.
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This thread is for those of us seeking to explore the dynamics of long term relationships with our ND partners. Some of us are ND ourselves, very many of us have ND children. It is a support thread, and a safe space, it does get emotional at times. Avoid sweeping generalisations if possible, try and keep it specific to you and your partner.
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It's complicated and it's emotional.
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The old thread is here.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/relationships/5183563-married-to-someone-with-aspergersasdnd-support-thread-13?page=1

Wise woman.

@Neurospice you said:

“I stay with DP because in the time I spend with him he is a lovely, caring and generous partner. But clearly he is self focused. He is so nice to me because he enjoys our relationship. He simply cannot see that when things are not so enjoyable, with his kids, he has a responsbility both to manage them and to protect me. So he goes to this magical place where somehow it will all be better if I just try again, a bit harder this time. No.

I would like DP to accept and understand his kids' full challenges and get them into intensive therapy, then to learn how to support me with them.”

Obviously we don’t know the exact issues with your DP’s partner but what is the intensive therapy that you think they might benefit from?

What sort of adaptions do you make for DP’s kids already? It’s often tricky when we have ND kids and have learned to adapt to our own, then realise that this is not what others need. Might that be part of it? Maybe I’m reacting again your post because you sound a lot like my DC’s school…at home kids need acceptance because they get so much negativity outside. You’ve probably got a lot to deal with in your own life and can’t do that well at the moment for DO’s kids? Maybe that’s the reason you give him for not spending time as a family? If he doesn’t like that then you know where you stand…

@Neurospice my partner sounds so similar to yours. Same reasons for me staying with him. However I have NT children and he has none. So I find he often can't process the dynamics about how they are because in his mind, all children follow specific rules, never eat crisps or sweets, never play with phones/ipads. How old are you and do you want to have your own children? Bear in mind this runs in families. For me, I'm happy seeing my partner at weekends when I can but I have my own children so i have everything I want. My partner would want us to live together but I can't see how he would manage with the family dynamic.

Hey thanks for the response. Great questions. I've thought long and hard about all the points you raise, for many years.
When I first met DP's kids, I could've run. I didn't I saw their loveliness underneath their challenges and was first to spot both had ADHD. I've no issue with the kids. They're just like those I've always enjoyed teaching the most.

Issue is DP and his so far inability to work as a team. When I used to work in a school, if a child was hitting etc, I'd speak to a colleague or manager and say 'there's this, what shall we do about, lets brainstorm.' When I feel supported I can handle anything. All behaviour is fact and data. No judgement. With DP, I'd say 'there's this etc' and he'd say 'don't criticise my child. Let me handle it.' I was left unsupported.

A kid would behave disrespectfully or aggressively (sometimes physical) and I'd take DP aside and say what happened, he'd say it didn't, or that I was criticising, or that I wasn't accepting his kids or that I was judging or shaming him and/or them.

I used to ask him a lot that if I was the other biological parent and he couldn't say 'stop criticising my kid' what would he say? He admitted that with his exw he'd still be defensive but he'd tell her the thing was her fault. He also said that until the kids' issues emerged they were a really happy couple. I don't think the mum had issues with her kids either, but she obviously did with DP.

How did he get this way? I think he's stuck in guilt and shame perhaps. He's had years of schools etc calling him in about his kids. He's a super high achieving Oxbridge graduate who grew up wealthy and to whom everything came easily. Perhaps just not moulded for adversity.

This absolutely breaks my heart. I had to detach from these kids who I adored because I couldn't be with them with DP. But how can I go back into this unsupported situation? I am so, so keen to find something to say that will change things.

@Neurospice oh gosh that all sounds difficult but somewhat familiar. My DH finds it difficult to work with me or parent collaboratively. He wants to have a say (and has a right to) but finds it all too overwhelming and gets angry/defensive/anxious. All parents have a tough time agreeing how to deal with things, but you have the added ND and a step-parent complications.

For your DP past performance is a reasonable insight into his likely future actions. Your DP and his kids are who they are. They are unlikely to be able to change. It is unlikely to get simpler or easier once you become more more enmeshed. Before you know what has happened you'll be stuck as carer to all of them as well as dealing with your DP's behaviour that you don't like now....

Sorry you've had this too.
I also find with ND kids that the adults in charge absolutely have to be consistent , united and with equal authority.
There's something about a chink in the team armour that these kids spot quickly and react to big-time, helping turn the chink into a great big yawning chasm of pain!

Just read this list @SpecialMangeTout and omg this is exactly my relationship.
Teamwork? Nope. DP can be the boss. He was raised officer class, as it were, with his polish and man-ness making up for lack of empathy, as he usually finds a really socially skilled woman deputy, and he's been a really successful manager. But he has to feel he is in charge.

Putting himself in my shoes? Might as well ask DP to speak Japanese.

Reading situations and inferring support? Lol. And also, when I specify what the situation is and what support I need, I risk him getting upset with himself because he thinks he let me down. And then I have to comfort him and the original topic of my feeling and my need is swept away in his emotional maelstrom.

Blimey this thread is such an eye opener. Its better than therapy.

I fully agree with @KnottyAuty . And it has been my experience with dh too.

I think you can’t force him to work collaboratively with you.
Handling things that way is what works best for you. But you won’t get that from him.
I feel like the best way would be the leave him handling his dcs. And have something in place if you’re personally affected by the behaviour and can’t ignore it (like one of the dcs is hitting you).
What to do is tricky. But I know my dh would balk at being told what to do or if I said that of xyz happens, then I will leave the room/leave his house. What seems to be working better is to just do it and let the natural consequence sink in.

I don’t know if that would work with your DP

Absolutely @SpecialMangeTout . DP doesn't seem to mind so much if I step away. He seems to mind a lot more if I try to support him collaboratively and expect the same in return. I think it is best to accept our differences.

The idea of having a strategy in place when behaviour is affecting me and I am unsupported is a good one. What could it be? I dislike the idea of just leaving because kids with ADHD are rejection sensitive. But also I don't know if its possible to ask DP to come up with his own strategy for dealing with behaviour that affects me (and much more seriously, my child) when he often does not seem to notice these things are happening.

I feel like I've taken over this thread!

Also I just found this great link on alexythimia which I think explains why DP can't stand in my shoes - and why he does so much DIY for me!

https://psychcentral.com/relationships/alexithymia-in-relationships#do-they-feel-love

I'm trying to appreciate the good and accept and minimise the not-so-good.

Do you think that people like some of our partners who are undiagnosed know that they are a little “different”? and if they do do they care? I only really realised I was when my daughter started showing signs. But before then I made a mess of many relationships.

@Neurospice If it’s affecting your children, then you need to protect her too.
And there is no reason why you should protect his dcs at her detriment. Afterall, your role and responsibility is towards her first, not them.

I think leaving the room has the advantage of protecting yourself whilst being a non violent way to communicating it’s not ok (as non violent communication style).
Redirection might work well too or telling them something like ‘I’m getting really frustrated just now,so I’m going to the bedroom to calm down’ which also has the advantage of modelling a certain behaviour to them.

@Rainbow03 i think my dh knows.
He is also very much seeing autism as a defect and something to be ashamed about.
So the subject is avoided (and a diagnostic is to avoid too - see the shame)

No way my partner would ever acknowledge it. The way his father talks about others in such a superior way and he thinks it’s all nonsense this sudden influx of neurodiversity in schools etc. I feel really for him because his hoarding is so obvious and the ridged thinking, I can’t see how they didn’t spot it when he was young apart form that they just swept it under the carpet. When he moved into my house and they walked into his house I couldn’t believe that they didn’t acknowledge the state of it. Mine believes he is the normal and other people are not.

@Ohdostopwafflinggeremy how is DH today? Any return visits to A&E? Are you run ragged?

Interesting conversation about ND kids.

DP’s DS is autistic and I find him a challenge. Though much less than I did. He is loud and bombastic and very inconsiderate by nature. He takes over communal space, watches the TV on excruciatingly loud volume, takes really long showers when other people need the bathroom, talks very loudly, bullies his sister and my DC (which they used to put up with when they were younger but now tell him where to go!). We would put down a plate of biscuits for them to share and he would literally shove the others out the way! I don’t mean when he was 5 or 6, but when he was 10 or 11!!! So it was very hard when he was younger as my DD especially needed protecting from him.

I remember once when we had a big trampoline, the other three kids could happily bounce on there and play games and as soon as DSS got on everyone would end up hurt and crying. He was too rough, shoving the others, throwing stuff at them, making them cry, ruining their games…. DP had to ban him from going on there as there were always tears! One time he kicked my DD in the head. Twice! She was only 7. She came in crying and wanting a cuddle and DP lost his temper at me because apparently I shouldn’t have comforted DD in front of his DS as it made him feel bad!!! He didn’t make him apologise and turned the tables as if I should be apologising to his DS for not prioritise his feelings over my crying 7 year old!

Another time, recently, DSS was titling my lamp and I could see the lampshade was going to topple off. And land on his head probably. It’s an old antique lamp so I asked him, very politely, to stop titling it. DP was in another room so didn’t see this but he did hear me. I went out and came back a few mins later. DP was there. He had obviously asked his DS about what I said and DS had lied about it (as he often does). DP then had a go at me and said DS had done no such thing. I said look, you weren’t here. You didn’t see it. I did. He just kept reiterating “DS told me he didn’t!” And after two or three times of me saying well I know what I saw, I ended up forcefully saying “and I am TELLING YOU, he did. And I saw this with my eyes and there is absolutely no possibility that I am mistaken!” But he couldn’t accept it. Just said again “well DS said he didn’t”. I left the room. I was very annoyed. He always defends him. He always acts like everyone is criticising his DS. I imagine DSS will grow up to be highly defensive as this is what he’s been taught to be. Even if he has done the thing he is accused of, his learned response will be to say the other person has upset his feelings (see trampoline incident), or to flatly deny his involvement (lamp). This is what he is being taught.

But of course if DP wants to tell him off then that’s a different matter and he will explode at him and refuse to let him give his side. More than once I’ve had to step in and say this is too much and you’re being unfair to him. It’s not good parenting I have to say. Very inconsistent. Very much teaching his kids, especially DSS, that his feelings are more important than anyone else’s. DP has taught him through example and through his daily “teachings” that DSS doesn’t have to do anything he doesn’t want to do. He makes drama out of small things, perceived sleights, instead of playing it down as I would do. Very much encourages him to take the role of victim, when often a friend has just been a bit thoughtless idle forgetful. That kind of thing.

It’s just history repeating itself. I think it will be impossible to tell when DSS is a man what was nature and what was nurture. But DP does seem to be moulding him into a replica of himself. Sigh. There is some future woman out there I feel my duty to warn……

Wow @BustyLaRoux ! If I didn’t see my DP so often I’d assume he had a double life and he was your partner too. His eldest child is exactly the same as your DS. That is an excellent point about the connection between the kid learning to be defensive because their parent modeled that for them. I assumed DP’s eldest just has ODD (he ticks all the boxes). I could be right about that on the basis much of ODD is learned behavior.

An adult team is necessary to handle challenging ND kids. When you can’t bring up an issue with your ‘team member’ because they will defend and deny and put it all on you, you aren’t a team.

I have left DP entirely alone with his kids for four months now save for one birthday party and semi detached a while before that. As PPs have pointed out, it wasn’t a good environment for my child, who comes first and will say when asked he doesn’t want to be around DP’s two because it is ‘chaos.’

The niggle is that DP and my child have a wonderful relationship. Mine is ASD (Asperger’s in old money) but not at all challenging. DP gets to enjoy all their similarities and has no behavior issues to deal with. The situation is very unbalanced. But while I leave DP to handle his own kids I do tell him about the level of teamwork it would require for me to go back in. He also has to admit to his younger one’s tendency to bully my child before he can deal with it (the child has had spates of being a class bully too).

But I do feel very bad for DP. I can’t imagine the strain of having kids that, basically, people are scared to be around. My little one is a model ASD kid. I did it all by the book, have spent a fortune on specialist outside help, and he’s just very aware of who he is and happy with it. He’s top of his year in several subjects at school and often other parents request him for sleepovers because he’s so entertaining and polite.

Parents even at DP’s eldest’s special school will turn down play dates. They’ll tell him the child is too aggressive and the situations with their own ASD kids then become too volatile. It must be a lot to have to admit to oneself and then deal with.

All leaves me feeling very guilty. DP comes to my place when he doesn’t have his kids, hangs with my kid and does a DIY job every time he’s here (my home like DP is a beautiful fixer-upper). I feel like I don’t contribute. But I can’t find a way to that doesn’t hurt.

@BustyLaRoux Thanks for asking.
Dh went back to work yesterday.
From deaths door to work in less than 48 hrs🤔

Being a model parent doesn’t mean you get a model ASD child. There are many different difficulties and areas where different children struggle. You don’t sound very how do I say it “positive” about this man and his family @Neurospice and I wonder if this is a little apparent. Why have a relationship with someone who you aren’t positive about and who you say isn’t very balanced. There are many wonderful other people.

I guess we all struggle with our partners but I have many many positive things I can say about mine. Otherwise what would be the point, we aren’t forced to have relationships with anyone.

I need advice.
Dh went back to work yesterday, left early morning( he works away for 2/3 weeks at a time, always has done)
Found out yesterday that dh didn't say bye to the kids, apparently this is normal. He 'doesn't usually' say goodbye was how dd put it. So if they are around when he leaves he'll say bye, but if they are in there rooms he doesn't go and say bye. He never calls or texts them either when he's away.
What parent leaves for weeks at a time and doesn't say goodbye to their children? That is a genuine question. I actually don't know what to think.
I am so upset that both kids are 'used' to this behaviour. I didn't and still don't know what to say.
I'm not apologising for him and I can't explain his behaviour to them.
They both have 'jokingly' in the past said they know dad doesn't really love them and to be perfectly honest I can't really argue with that. 😢

I’d probably tell him to make an effort or not bother coming back. I’m not up for making other peoples relationships anymore. Kids aren’t stupid and they would know you are lying to them. If a grown human can’t understand or even make the effort to understand that children have needs then I don’t see the point. Sorry I’m getting hard now, it’s not our jobs to fix people and relationships. People with ASD are quite capable of learning and adapting even if it feels a little weird and difficult, it’s a terrible excuse.

People with personality disorders on the other hand can’t adapt or change their thinking!

I totally agree with @Rainbow03.

Oh that sounds sad for them. My DH often used to not say goodnight to the kids. He comes in/out of the house and doesn't welcome people. I used to come to the front door to greet him but he would often be on the phone or push past to run to the loo. I've come to accept this as normal - your post has reminded me how odd it is! He was unrepentant if I mention it so I stopped. Don't apologise on his behalf, but do speak to your kids about how it isn't a good way to be and the social expectation is for something different if they want to maintain good relationships in the future.

My daughter asked me this morning before school. Mummy why do you ask me everyday how was my school day and what did you get up to at cubs. She explained that she thought I wanted to be nosey and force her to tell me things. It is funny the different way we view things. I’m asking because I love her and I’m interested in what she does, she sees it as intrusive and always replies quite sparingly. I have to explain to her about social expectations and how if she wants relationships there are certain ways to behave. I can only imagine being undiagnosed and telling this to a grown human brain.

I think that’s such an important point. My DH doesn’t collaborate with me not because he won’t, but because he doesn’t value collaboration. He’s highly autonomous with a very strong preference for undertaking tasks alone.

‘Why would you want to collaborate’ he thinks, and sees the downsides. I can work alone to shape this task well, quickly and with less complexity’. Why would you NOT collaborate’ my brain tells me, we are better together, we can do more together, we can make shared meaning and deepen our emotional connection.

🤬🤬🤬🤬 I’ve just had a HUGE argument with DP. I really lost my temper. I rarely ever lose my temper. Him and his ex are awful. They are at constant loggerheads. They call the police on each other. Try and involve social services. School. They’ve been to court multiple times. They use the DC as weapons. It is so so awful.

I used to try and help him. I would draft his emails and statements. Which he made difficult as he would say things which were unhelpful, unreasonable, unclear….. and I would be typing all while he ranted and repeated his arguments excitedly at me. It’s actually very hard to type something sensible when someone won’t stop talking at you. I’d have to keep stopping so would often be sat there for hours trying to draft him something. I’d ask him to please just let me get on with writing. Or I’d say “do you want me to listen while you rant or do you want me to type? I can’t do both!” But after a minute or two of being quiet he would start up again!!!

If I questioned something he wanted to write he would get angry. If I gave advice he would shout at me if it wasn’t what he wanted to hear. He was very passionate (for obvious reasons) but he would never accept anything from me. I felt it my duty to tell him when he was being contradictory or unfair. Or making himself look bad. But all I got for my trouble was being shouted at. If his solicitor said the same thing as me he would accept it (to her face) but if I repeated it afterwards he would shout at me again. Telling me I was wrong or that wasn’t what they meant. Or I hadn’t heard properly. Shouting, shouting….

He has trouble accepting what he doesn’t want to hear.
He has trouble understanding what is being said.
He has trouble making himself clear.
And any attempt by me to seek clarification or give different advice than what he wanted would result in him getting very irate and shouting.

So after a couple of years I stepped back. It was all so toxic and all I got for my trouble was being shouted at.

He has just asked me for advice about something which is connected to what I do for work. It was very hard to work out what he actually wanted though. I had to ask questions like “so are you saying you’ve requested that already or you would like to request that??” And he would go off on a tangent about how he “doesn’t need to REQUEST!!!! He can DEMAND (!!!) and they have to do it!” And again I would say well semantics aside (request/demand 🙄) have you done that already or are you intending to do that? I’m not clear sorry” Eventually he said he had done it. So I say OK so what’s the ask of me? You wanted to demand something and you have. What do you want me to do/say? He got irritable and said he just wanted advice. (But it’s not clear what about!!!!!) Anyway we got there eventually after about 20 mins of back and forth. I call someone I know at work (she is very busy but made time for me) and spend 20 mins on the call getting better advice then I can give him and the name of someone he can contact directly. I then explain all this to him in great detail. All in all I spent about an hour helping him. He didn’t say thanks until I said “so is that helpful then??” And then he said oh yeah, thanks.

Right.

Then he asks for my help again about half a hour later with writing a complaint. He has so many complaints on the go (half of which are hot air and he never sends anyway!). I ask which complaint is this? He barks a person’s name at me. I say oh right ok. So what do you want to complain about? He raises his voice and lists “what about this and this and this and this???? Hmm??!” (Rude!) I say I’m sorry. No need to sound annoyed. You said you wanted me to help you write the complaint. Can’t I ask what it is you want to complain about?! I then try to ask some clarifying questions as to which parts specifically (there was an unpleasant episode where this person came to our house a while back. It went on for a good hour and the police had to be called. But I didn’t hear it all. I didn’t engage with that person. I don’t know this person. And I didn’t speak to the police). I ask what specifically which bit of the list of things he’s just shouted at me does he think the professional body he wants to complain to would be interested in? (ie all of it? Just the bits where they referred to their professional status? Bits I heard or other bits I’m not aware of?)

Well that was it!! he starts screaming at me that I never support him. Demanding when have I ever supported him? I try and answer but of course he just shouts over me. I ask what’s the point asking a question like that if he just intends to shout over me when I answer. He shouts that he doesn’t want an answer. It’s rhetorical. So I say “so you just want to shout at me then? Is that it? What if I have a view about something you say (shout!)?” He shouts at me that he isn’t interested in my view. I don’t need to have a view! These are HIS FEELINGS!!!! And he feels totally unsupported as whenever he asks for my help, I never help him and it always ends up with us arguing!

Well gang, I’m afraid I lost my shit this time!!!!! I shouted back that I had literally just spent an hour helping him! Ringing up my very busy friend for advice. Taking an hour out of my day for him.

He said yes and all I’d done was question him and challenge him (this was the part when I was trying to work out what he actually wanted advice about!) and also that he had been very grateful (lie!!!! He certainly was not!). He had then apparently stupidly thought maybe he could ask for help with something else but it’s gone the way it always goes. With me challenging him and us arguing. Anyway, so that’s his view of this afternoon. I haven’t helped him. All I’ve done is question and challenge him and give him a hard time.

My view is that he is very unclear, expects me to read his mind, expects me to know things I couldn’t know, and when asked for clarification he sees it as criticism and challenge and responds by getting angry as this is his go to emotional response for most things.

I am not challenging. I am seeking clarification.
I am not criticising. I am trying to advise on a better or different course of action.
We are not arguing. He is getting frustrated and shouting!
I am not being unsupportive. When he shouts, I withdraw as I am protecting myself from his toxicity and anger.

So yeah, those are MY FEELINGS!!!!! But I guess he ain’t interested in those!