totally sick of dh and porn use - need advice

[sameoldstory]

Had to name-change as I'm an embarrassed regular.

I'm 6 weeks pregnant so probably a bit over-emotional but I have always been upset my my dh's love of porn. He's always paying for subscriptions to websites, which is about 10-20 quid a pop - he tends to pay and then cancel pretty soon after. It's just the usual stuff, nothing weird iykwim, but it pisses me off so much. We're a bit worried about money at the moment, esp with dc3 on the way, and he promised he would stop. Swore blind.

He knows how much I hate it, it makes me feel sick inside and I can't help feeling insecure as he ogles over other female's perfect bodies. This has been an ongoing issue between us for years. He promises he'll stop, then doesn't.

The thing is, I can see he will never change, and I don't know how I can be with him for the rest of our lives with this hanging over me. He's a good dh really, looks after us and I do believe he's do anything for me, so why won't he stop doing something that upsets me so much? I just can't love him as much as I should because of it.

Any wives out there who have learned to live with this kind of thing? How? I feel that it will ultimately wreck our marriage.

sameoldstory-i hope your dh stops.my xh used to watch porn on sky tv,he even paid for it using my bank details.he would watch it when i was in bed.he wasnt exactly a model husband or father though,so when i found out about the porn i threw him out and divorced him a few months later.fwiw,the divorce was on the grounds of unreasonable behaviour,the unreasonable behaviour being his porn use.

all the men ive known who think its ok to use porn while in a relationship have been abusive arseholes with no respect for women,so maybe thats why i have such a dim view of this sort of thing.

when people say 'the majority of men use porn'is that a proven fact,or is it just something men say to vindicate themselves?

2 in 3 marriages fail, so go ahead, cheat now!

The difficulty with this idea that 'if your partner is upset by something, you should stop doing it' is that some people use their hurt feelings as a weapon and as a way of controlling a partner. (OP, I am not saying you do this because I have no way of knowing). You give up going to a nightclub (just a normal nightclub) with work colleagues because your partner is worried that there will be attractive people there. Then your partner wants you to change jobs because there are attractive other people in your workplace. Then your partner wants you never to leave the house.... I don't engage in couple relationships anyway as I have far better things to do, but in general it's never a good idea to give in to someone else's insecurities, because you can't make an insecure person happy. They have to get over themselves, for their own sakes.

Well your argument makes sense internally mz, but of course there are plenty of us who will argue that a revulsion for porn is not the product of insecurity - if anything, it's the product of respect, both for ourselves and for the people whose images are being consumed.

PW: and plenty of us would argue that a revulsion for porn based on the same tired old argument that it's all the same thing (basically 'everything that turns me on is acceptable erotica, everything I don't like is disgusting porn') is not about respect but about wilful ignorance and a need to feel superior. But then this argument's never going to be over.

If it helps at all, I don't accept the erotica/porn dichotomy. It's all plain old porn to me, of varying degrees of intensity.

Sp PW is looking at sexually explicit pictures (still or moving) always inherently wrong? Is that your argument?

cestlavie good post

I think that the porn continuum starts when images are made of sexual activity or poses. My personal scale of 'wrongness' has more to do with the violence of the sexual imagery than levels of nudity, but I do have an essential dislike of commodification. I'm not saying that Dejeuner sur l'herbes should be banned, for instance, but I do think it's a piece of porn.

OK, PW, so you dislike all images of sexual activity (isn't Dejeuner sur l'herbe a painting? - and if your argument is that a woman had to pose nude for the painter, are there not other paintings where the artists' models suffered more though the paintings were less explicit... am thinking of the Rosetti painting of 'Ophelia' where the model got pneumonia or something through lying in the bath for hours on a cold day). Is it just sexual images that you think are 'commodification?' Or do you have a religious belief that photography or depiction of the human form is somehow wrong (I am not being flippant or insulting, I am vaguely aware that, for instance, Native Americans think that photography steals the soul.)

3 years ago I asked H if he would go to Relate with me. One of my first concerns was his use of internet porn. I addressed this, his answer was that he'd got the computer from work and the person there that owned it must've downloaded some of the things on it.

And the Relate person's answer? "It's not illegal, you know."

At which point I walked out.

H won't confront the problem he has with it.

It's still going on, worse now than it ever was. An A4 sheet, filled with websites such as 'Daddy's Girl', discovered last week, with names on the side - presumably people he's 'spoken' to on those sites.

cestlavie, that's an interesting argument. But ... let's replace porn with apples. Let's say I love apples, and DH hates apples. Why on earth should I give up apples, because he hates them? I don't try to sneak or force him into consuming them.

Every couple needs to decide, together, where the line for fidelity is. If one person arbitrarily says 'you may not consume porn, you may not wank', that's not much of a mutual decision.

I do think spending money on porn is not very wise, though - particularly if you have money issues, but even if you don't, because a) it's available free and b) porn sites are pretty likely, imo, to put weird crap on your puter or resell your cc details.

Oh, and interacting with people on porn sites is a bit different from just looking at porn. Although I guess not that different from, say, going to a strip joint.

I'm not entirely kidding with the apples. My DH really hates apples. He is grossed out by them. He doesn't want to kiss me if I've been eating them.

Thing is, though, nothing I do can make someone else feel any particular way.

I don't think porn and apples are the same. But I don't think 'my partner doesn't like me doing X' automatically translates to 'I shouldn't do X'.

A question to those who are feel insecure because of their dhs' porn habits:

How do you feel about about your DHs eying up women in the street? I don't mean obviously - but just the odd glance. An leg here, a cleavage there. That sort of thing.

I ask because although I don't use porn, I do cop a good discreet look at attractive women in the street. But it seems to me that there's no real difference. Is there?

(FWIW, the reasons for porn being wrong also apply largely to the erotic fiction written for women).

mz - I'm not sure I could say that I dislike all sexual imagery, because I haven't seen it all. I only got into this to agree with your original assertion (as I understood it to be) that the distinction between visual erotica and porn is largely false. To reiterate: I think it's a continuum. It begins with something like saucy seaside postcards or Botticelli, and it ends in rape and snuff porn (although I think you maintain that this doesn't exist? I don?t know whether it does or not). IMO, the most interesting question is: where, along this continuum, do you draw the line and say that certain images should not be legal? Obviously, if you drew the line at Manet, you would be considered a little eccentric, to say the least. However, Dejeuner was considered absolutely obscene when it was first shown. As always happens with sexual imagery, tastes have hardened considerably over time - although the trope (lone, prone naked woman surrounded by men who have fucked/will fuck her) is oddly familiar.

No, I'm not religious and have no objection to image-making per se. I think that porn (as defined above) is a special case, because the urge to act upon/act out the sexual activity that we see depicted is often extremely strong, and can lead to people (most often men) becoming unconcerned about the issue of consent. It also, to haul out a well-worn argument, results in the overwhelming sexual objectification of women, who are the subjects of the vast majority of pornographic images. I believe that this objectification reinforces the position of women as second-class citizens.

NQC - if porn is not like apples, then what is your point?

I'll give you an analogy that is IMO more apposite: dog-fighting. Dog-fighting is violent, corrupt, exploitative, morally bankrupt, and creates innocent victims. If my DP suddenly started attending dog fights, I would feel quite within my rights to tell him that his behaviour revolted me.

Of course spouses are entitled to express views that they hold strongly, particularly if they relate to activities that their spouse is undertaking. I'd go so far as to say that it is an essential feature of most committed relationships.

I do agree with you that you can't force someone to change their behaviour. However, you can say quite clearly that if the behaviour does not change, the relationship will be at an end.

NQC/ madamez: I think my point was that where someone is genuinely upset and distressed by their partner's behaviour, and that partner can change that behaviour at relatively little cost to their own lives, why would they not do it?

madamez: I've argued the nightclub analogy on here many times in your favour but in that case, the person is giving up a lot (be it friendships or a social life) in order to make that person happy. In this instance, all DH is being asked to do is give up porn. Whilst I, like many guys, do use porn to some degree, most guys would not have an issue giving it up if it distressed their partner, especially, if like the OP their partner had tried to accept it. And let's be clear about this, whilst many people are okay with porn, many people are not, so it's not as though the OP is acting in an insane or arbitrary way in holding these views (unlike, for example, banning your partner from going out with friends).

NQC: actually the apples analogy is fine. If DW hated me eating apples, I'd give them up unless I really loved them. Why wouldn't I? She'd be much happier and, quite frankly, a life without apples for me would be pretty much of a muchness.

I agree with the principle that giving something up you like to make you partner happy is a bad one but taking an absolute line on that just makes you a twat - "I don't care if it makes you unhappy, get over it, I like doing it". Relationships are all about trade-offs and compromise on both parts.

toadinthehole-i dont see any problem with the odd glance at an attractive person in the street,to me thats no different to appreciating a nice car or a nice bag someone has.however,if it was done in an obvious way,while the persons partner was there,then that to me would show a total lack of respect and i would see it as abusive(as it was something my xp used to do alot,looking women up and down and saying 'mmmm' while i was there).

Divastrop,

I do notice women in the street who look nice. That is perhaps similar to noticing a nice car or bag. More often I notice those who look sexy.

That's what I'm talking about. And I'm very discreet. I'd never make it obvious to the person concerned, or my DW.

Checking out women because they make one feel a bit mmMMMMMmm... Leaving aside questions of industry exploitation, how is that any different from looking at porn?

Sameoldstory: I don't have any advice for you, but you do have my sympathy. I hope your husband will somehow be made to feel how he is hurting you.

theres a world of difference between thinking 'that man has nice hair,and i like his shirt' to thinking about fucking that mans brains out while looking at him in an erotic pose bollock naked.thinking somebody is attractive to look at is not the same as wanting to shag them.

toadinthehole - I do occasionally spot my dh checking out a pretty girl on the street but actually it doesn't bother me that much. I can accept that's it's just human nature to be drawn to attractive people. I don't know if that makes me a hypocrite as some would argue that looking at porn is just looking at pretty girls - but I do think there's a distinction.

Interestingly, if ever the situation occurs that a good-looking man passes by, my dh always looks at me to see if I'm checking said man out. He has his own insecurities. My dh is very good looking himself, btw.

I looked at the websites that someone posted on this thread as links yesterday, and have been really disturbed by what I read. For anyone who thinks that porn is harmless, I highly advise you to take a look.

I'll clarify further. I generally don't fantasise about going to bed with women I see in the street. I probably have in the past. Sometimes I'll think "Mmm, nice bum". Sometimes I'll think "oh wow.. I'd better look somewhere else". Divastrop, if you don't mind me quoting you to save time, you say:

"theres a world of difference between thinking 'that man has nice hair,and i like his shirt' to thinking about fucking that mans brains out while looking at him in an erotic pose bollock naked.thinking somebody is attractive to look at is not the same as wanting to shag them."

I totally agree, but these things are all different at different points on the same continuum, aren't they? What is the fundamental distinction between the two, apart from degree? Compare what you say to "My grandmother looks nice today", which would be completely non-sexual.

The reason why this is so important is because if there is no fundamental distinction, then
a) viewing porn, and discreetly ogling people in public can both be OK, or:
b) neither can be OK (as I understand Dittany to mean).

I habitually notice attractive (ie, sexy) women. I don't use porn because I would upset my wife greatly if I did. But that is a separate reason entirely, e.g. we should be loving towards our spouses, and it has nothing to do with the rightness or wrongness of porn itself.

I don't want to get into the debate of whether porn is itself harmful. I appreciate there could be a difference between discreet ogling and using porn on the basis that one is harmful and the other isn't, but ISTM that unless one has religious reasons for disliking porn, it's impossible to say that all porn is harmful.