Wife wont let mum come round at Christmas

[Unjeffeson]

Background:
My m(41) wife hates my mum. There wasn't one incident but she just thinks shes selfish and manipulative and just wants everything on her own terms, including spending time with pur daughter. She feels my mum tried to dominate when our daughter was born and has never considered her feelings, and is rude and catty to her. My wife also thinks I take my mums side too much when i try and explain her point of view or try and create compromises. This has led my wife to feeling like my mother is ‘the other woman’, and she sees red almost every time we discuss her.

Things have been stable if unpleasant for a while, with my wife agreeing for my mum to see our daughter every couple of months for an afternoon. In the meantime my mum is on the phone to me regularly about how depressed its all making her.

Whats happened:
My mum has asked if she can see us on Christmas day, so she doesnt have to be by herself. My wife has said hard no, she doesnt want her anywhere near us at xmas. Mum can see us at some point around the end of December but not on Christmas day. Wife says we need to maintain a united front to set boundaries with my mum on this.

Ive been managing my mum’s feelings on all this for two years now as well as putting my wife’s desires first. It is important to me that my daughter knows her grandmother and that she doesnt get dragged into it. When we argue about it my wife makes ‘it’s me or her’ noises and i refuse to break up my family for what my mother wants. But dealing with mums misery on the whole thing is very hard.

What should I do? Is it okay to say no to mum at xmas so long as we have another date lined up?

And i guess more importantly - had anyone here had a mother in law you feel is so unpleasant that you prevent them visiting, keep them away at xmas etc, in spite of the difficulty it causes your SO? Where’s the line of tolerance (if there even is one)?

Tbh, it's highly unlikely that the things that the MIL did that upset OP's wife were done with kindness. If they were, OP would have said that what she did was inappropriate but well meaning. He is trying to defend his mother but he doesn't say that.

It's fine to believe that the MIL is being disproportionately punished for her actions but not that the OP's mum meant to be kind but got things wrong.

So how do you draw that conclusion?
I read it that the OP was trying to be as neutral as possible and just stating facts without comment. How do you read from the OP they were done unkindly?

Because he said that his views on the situation were:

• My mother is selfish and inconsiderate and isn't willing to back off when asked.
• She lets her feelings get the better of her and suffers from verbal diahorrea which leads to thoughtless comments.

He thinks his wife is being hard-nosed and stubborn and not seeing his point of view and is upset that she won't back down as it is making things difficult for him.

He mentioned that his mother was loving to him growing up but did not say that any of the incidents that upset his wife were due to his mum trying to be kind but over-stepping the mark. I think that if he thought that was the case, he would have put it as one of the reasons why his wife should cut his mum some slack.

Well she was clearly babysitting when she took the baby out in its pram to her friend, so if she were spiteful and nasty presumably they wouldn't have agreed to this.
I think it's more along the lines that she didn't show true contrition when challenged and basically defended her actions and was to quote OP "obstinate" in not seeing that she'd done anything wrong.
Maybe the child didn't want to have a "quiet nap" so as she was effectively in charge at that point, decided to take him out and then wouldn't apologise for doing so.
If I were a MIL I probably would have apologised just to keep the peace, but I would have been raising my eyebrows at how precious DIL was and probably wouldn't be volunteering to babysit too often!
Clearly MIL is more truthful than others and for this she has to spend Christmas on her own

They aren’t asking her to babysit ! Because she does what she wants without apology, is so offensive she drove her other son away, and never stops complaining, verbally assaulting, and criticizing.

HTH.

• @pikkumyy77
• Taking baby to a friend's house when left to look after her rather than getting her to nap quietly

Sounds like babysitting to me

To be honest she only sees them once every 8 weeks so not a huge amount of time to be "verbally assaulting" them.

They stopped asking her to babysit because of her behavior.

Yeah I thought op’s analysis was very objective. I felt sorry for him as I don’t think he sees either of them as being in the wrong entirely - which, let’s face it, is how life normally is. People have different points of view.
Once we tended to leave it at that, but now people leverage Nc or LTB out of it by sticking on ready made sticky labels of “ narcissist, gaslighter, abusive, controlling” etc. Those types certainly all exist but not in the quantities and with the ubiquity that they are identified on MN. Families are tricky. Sometimes they will piss you off. 🤷🏻‍♀️

Agreed, if a woman posted on here that her husband was preventing her from seeing her mother and banning her on Christmas day, people would be saying to leave him and that he is controlling etc. It seems ok when it's the other way around and the Mil (the man's mother) is always seen as the villain.

Could you keep your DW & DM separate but take your DC to visit their Grandparent on your own? If your wife doesn't like your Mum then it'll be no loss to her if she doesn't get an invite to spend the day with your Mum but it's unfair of her to expect you or your DC not to have a relationship with her. Arrange a day before or after Christmas to take your DC to see her Grandma & let hem have their own time together without any negatively from your Wife. Also remember to let your Mum know you won't tolerate her speaking ill of your wife in front of your DC.

Amazing, one week and 2 days since the Op last replied - he's not been back since the day he started this thread, yet it continues and is on page 35

Your wife can’t improve the situation. The situation is 100% your mother’s doing: only your mother can change but she very likely won’t.

Why have you been managing your mother’s feelings for 2 years? That’s not your job. She should have friends or a therapist for that.

its not verbal diarrhoea by your Mum. By your own account she’s different with you and nice to you. Your mum pretends it’s accidental but it’s entirely planned and manipulative of her.

The only long term solution is for you to get some therapy so you can have clear boundaries with your mother without guilt. Your guilt over all this is not fair on you. It’s not earned by you. It’s a gut reaction due to a life time of conditioning by your mother. If family was so important to your mother & she was genuine, your mother would apologise & do better.

This is tricky, managing the wishes of our relatives. Having kids does change dynamics and relatives can come across overbearing/interfering with the best or (rather) with clueless intentions. It is difficult for your wife if your Mum has been unpleasant and challenging as a MIL. It is not unreasonable for you to be concerned about your Mum and her being on her own at Christmas... What has she done previous years? What about your in laws? I'd say you don't want to get stuck with traditions or pressure to spend Christmas with the same people every year and to not subject your wife to that...How is it to be fair with all the Grandparents? (I appreciate I am assuming that all the Grandparents are around). Answering your questions, yes, I think you need to find compromise with your wife. My MIL has been interfering and is used to being heavily involved in her adult children's lives (I don't mean that it is necessarily a bad thing). I reckon that she feels she should have exclusive right to spend Christmas day with her adult children.She is very cross with me that I have invited my FIL for Christmas day this year, her ex. She feels he was a bad husband a bad father (this isn't necessarily wrong but he's not been a bad Grandfather and they've been divorced 25 years. I hope to move to having no grandparents on Christmas Day or to make it very fair and to take it in turns over the years as this is an important day for all the grandparents.

This 💯

‘You are not the problem’ is an excellent book, please please read it. It’s by Kate Mc Kenna and Helen Villiers.

Your mother taking the baby without permission was enough for me. That would be game over for me too.

Your mother is a narcissist. Please read that book and save your marriage.

Have you actually read all of OP posts? Hmm his mother has substituted him for his father, his other sibling is now non contact with their mother due to her controlling and narcissistic tendencies… I don’t think you have read this fully.. the man’s wife is not the only one she is pushing away, she has pushed away one of her son already, whom is not married or have a family yet btw… you may wish you reread all of OP posts before bashing his wife it completely sounds the MIL fault and it sounds like it is her who needs to change her ways, more than anyone else. When your spouse dies you do not substitute your son for your husband.. it’s really not healthy. You can rely on your family for support but you do not use your son in his father’s place it’s not healthy for anyone involved. OPs mum needs to be the one changing her ways and maybe realise she has in-fact hurt her family, she has to realise that before she looses everyone, her other son has found it completely unbearable and cut his mother out. You really need to read all of OP reply’s first..

You do realise people can continue a discussion without the OP, don't you? The thread isn't anything to do with him/her as a person and he/she isn't needed. People are discussing the topic.

It kinda is, don’t you think when we all discussing OP family business… this isn’t a topic post it’s an advice post 🤦‍♀️ there is a difference between post types…

I think people are completely exaggerating this 'she took the baby without permission' thing. Some of you are revelling in making it sound as though she practically abducted her.

The MIL brought the baby from upstairs to downstairs ONCE while the wife was sleeping. Presumably because the baby woke up and she wanted to let the mother rest. I very much doubt she went upstairs and deliberately disturbed a sleeping baby for no reason. If she did, then let the OP come back and tell us that. That would be different, obviously. But also extremely unlikely.

The MIL took the baby out for a walk while she was babysitting, to visit a friend, presumably somewhere fairly local. I can't imagine she'd be dragging the pram on and off buses and trains and it doesn't sound as if the DIL would be allowing her the car seat. Again, if she took it upon herself to put the car seat in the car without being shown how or told that it was okay, that's a bit different, but as we don't know that, we can't assume it.

If you are left in charge and trusted to babysit, then I don't think it's the biggest crime in the world to take baby out for a short trip, providing it's safe and not somewhere inappropriate. Wife is using the argument that the baby should have been indoors for a proper sleep, but we all know that a tired baby will nap perfectly well in a pram, and sometimes walking with the pram is the best thing to help them get to sleep.

Has it occurred to anyone that perhaps the MIIL was struggling to settle the baby and thought that a walk might do the trick, as it so often does? Hands up all the mothers who have NEVER done that, preferring to insist the only appropriate place for a sleep is the baby's cot and it's better to let them scream it out there than try something different. Anyone?

It's perfectly possible that the baby slept contentedly in her pram for an hour or two while granny had coffee with a friend. The MIL is not completely stupid, she's raised two children of her own. She's not going to deliberately keep a tired baby from sleeping, is she? Who wants a cranky, over-tired baby in their care?

With hindsight she probably should have cleared it with the son and wife first, but of all the ways it's possible to massively overstep as a grandparent, this hardly registers on the scale. It's certainly not grounds to label her as toxic and to limit her time with her grandchild to virtually nothing.

And another thing:

If it had been YOUR mother who had 'taken the baby without permission' in exactly the two ways described, would it be 'game over' for her, too?

I completely agree with all of this. It’s been whipped up from something mil probably didn’t see was a problem.

The “ rant “ about them moving away wasn’t anything untoward unless they actually expect her to furnish the place like a rug and not have or express any feelings. That’s one of the very real dangers of all these “lay people” touting diagnoses of narcissism. Sometimes humans with emotions will have feelings that are awkward or inconvenient for you. That doesn’t turn them into a narcissist.

To be fair to OP, I would not have liked my first baby being taken downstairs or on a walk unless I’d agreed; but (besides accepting that would have been partly a me issue; I’d have coped far better with that with subsequent Dc) it is also something I’d have got over - and it can also be managed by not leaving the Dc alone with her. It’s not a justification for not seeing her at Christmas. That’s total overreach,

@TwigletsAndRadishes
Exactly! I made the same points earlier in the post about her taking the baby downstairs while wife was sleeping and that she took the baby out while she (MIL) was babysitting ( presumably as OP and wife were out enjoying themselves)! The criticism wasn't that she took baby out per we, but that she didn't obey instructions for a "quiet" nap.
These are actions of someone who is considerate and wanted to help/be involved.
Maybe MIL did rely too heavily on her son after her husband left her having had a child with someone else. But that was YEARS ago. Is she to be continually punished? She clearly didn't stop him having girlfriends/wife of his own or anything! She was needy at the time. Get over it!!
And she is only allowed access to the child for 6 afternoons per year for these crimes and not allowed on Christmas Day.
All these people labelling ordinary if flawed parents as narcissists just because they express a different view!!

I'm an adult who grew up in a family dynamic like what you're describing. I spent years listening to my grandmother be a miserable human being and talk bad about her child's spouse. My other grandmother passed away on Christmas after a long illness. We weren't there in her final hours with the rest of the family simply because the emotionally manipulative grandparent got her way and wasn't alone on Christmas.
The parent that allowed their spouse to be disrespected and catered to their mommy is not in my daily life. The miserable grandmother always brought gifts when we got together. It didn't win me over.
I saw the reality of things, and who my parents and grandmother were. Your child will too. How do you want your child to remember your role in things? Don't let the family you came from destroy the family you've created.

OP, I think you are not seeing how awful your mother behaves because to you it feels normal to an extent. This is a sign your youth was not as happy as you say it was - it points to trauma. The way your mother behaves is not loving, not caring and not something you should want in your life. The fact that you can’t see that is a sign you probably experienced childhood trauma. I would suggest you consult a psychologist.

So what? You're the parent too, just take your children over to your mum's for a couple of hours on Christmas afternoon. I don't get on with my own mother for many reasons but I've never stopped my children from having a relationship with her and now they're grown up, they still do. I don't get involved. I'd let their Dad take them to see her whilst I relaxed at home.

However if your wife can't even bear you to take your children to see their grandmother/wants you to have no relationship with your own mother then you have a very troublesome wife who needs to pick her battles. All of this just isn't worth it

It's not even a good idea for your mum to come over to yours for Christmas. So as said - go to hers for a while. Your wife can put her feet up at home.