Married to someone with Asperger's/ASD/ND: support thread 13

[Daftasabroom]

New thread.

This thread is for those of us seeking to explore the dynamics of long term relationships with our ND partners. Some of us are ND ourselves, very many of us have ND children. It is a support thread, and a safe space, it does get emotional at times. Avoid sweeping generalisations if possible, try and keep it specific to you and your partner.

It's complicated and it's emotional.

The old thread is here.

I agree, you can't change people. And I think that if someone has a ND, it's okay to not be happy about their behaviour, even if that behaviour is the direct result of their ND.

We have friends whose daughter has ASD. Her behaviour is, frankly, not great. It's obviously linked to her ASD and we feel for them because they are doing their best in a difficult situation. But, when their DD behaves appallingly to our DD, I can't be expected to tell DD to accept it because her DD has ASD. Or at least, I don't think I can. It feels like a slippery slope - in 10 years time if a boyfriend treats DD badly but tells her it's because they have ASD or MH problems, must she put up with it then?

exBIL's excuse for a lot of things was, "But you trigger my trauma response" when SIL was actually just expecting normal things from him.

I think that's all different to someone who is ND but doing their best to still give their partner and families and loved ones the support and interaction they need.

@MetooOP im not minimising anything. I’ve seen the scenario with the child playing out in front of me. I was the child and it was my dad. So I think I have quite a good idea how damaging it is.

What im saying is that I don’t agree being autistic makes one more likely to be a narcissist.
And that there are MANY reasons why one can react in the way you describe, many of which have nothing to do with autism or being a narcissist. In my dad’s case, it’s deep childhood trauma.

Does it mean it’s ok or that it was an appropriate reaction? No it’s not.
Regardless of the reason/diagnosis.

In my H's case, which is what I was talking about, it absolutely is his autism. I didn't mention narcissism in my post at all, so I am not sure why are bringing this in.

But being as you have mentioned it, whether the absence of empathy or mindsight is due to autism or narcissism is rather a moot point. A ND person with very low empathy or mindsight may not be trying to destroy you, in the a narcissist might, but the destructive outcome is the same.

Because that’s what the comment you were answering to was about?
And that’s the point I was initially answering?

We seem to have have massively crossed wire there.

Regarding the video in which he says that we are becoming our partners greatest source of anxiety. Do you think this is how our children see us? At times my daughter appears to really dislike me and need to get away from me. She after in reflection will 100% blame me. I had to get away from you because you always blah blah blah in my ear, making me get ready etc etc. She sees me as the enemy and the cause of her stress and anxiety. She has no ownership of her feelings it’s always everyone else’s fault for “making” her feel and react the way she does.

@Rainbow03
i don’t know about children, mine are grown up now, but my H certainly blames me for “making” him do things, particularly if it’s something that’s gone wrong
H: you made me buy the wrong screws in B&Q
Me: I wasn’t there, so not sure I “made” you do anything
H: well you told me to get screws
Me: I asked you to get screws for x, I assumed you’d check what size you needed.
H: It’s your fault, you made me…….

ad I finitum. So very wearing!

How extraordinarily childish of him.

I will say that the guys in the two successful ND/NT marriage I know aren't like that. They've decided to take responsibility for themselves. Mind you both have had help in teenage years to learn to handle themselves and the challenges of a relationship.

@SpecialMangeTout I think the confusion may have come from an earlier post I made. My point was that research suggests that narcissism happens as a result of a child's brain not developing properly, often impacted by trauma. And I'd made the point that teaching children how to behave, to help their brains develop etc, is something that might well not be done as effectively if those children are ND and/or that they might be more likely to experience trauma if their parents don't know how to handle things etc.

I will give you an example, I am fairly certain DN has ADHD. He may well be autistic as well, but I don't know. His parents have, frankly, been unable/unwilling to deal with things. This is exacerbated by the fact that his father is a controlling, narcissistic (I have no idea if he is an actual narcissist, I'm just saying he has traits) wanker whose behaviour has caused significant damage to his (now ex) W and children and whose behaviour continues to cause significant damage. What I notice with DN however is that his responses are very different to his sibling and that his mother does not seem to be able to process or manage or support him with this. Right now, my concern is that DN is not getting the support HE needs and that this entire experience is going to be part of a much large trauma for him than it will perhaps be for his brother. That, in turn, could lead to him being more likely to develop narcissistic traits himself as an adult.

@DucklingSwimmingInstructress
if that was in response to my post, then yes, it is extraordinarily childish of him. And he behaves like a stroppy 68 year old toddler a lot of the time.
it’s never his fault, it’s either my fault or someone else’s fault or the universe’s fault.
All very boring and I mostly ignore.

@Vuurhoutjies In my opinion I think that some children with ND can be extremely difficult to bond with as a parent. I think there is a chance they could go through life developing extremely unhealthy behaviours because people, even their own parents don’t know or don’t want to deal with them. I think narcissism could develop as a coping mechanism. I think in certain circumstances a perfect storm could happen, low empathy, not bonding with people, blaming people, trauma, always doing things wrong and getting in trouble etc. The ego is there to protect and narcissist is born out of protection I do believe. My 8 year old absolutely shows signs of narcissism but she is young and teachable, some children just get left.

H is like a stroppy, petulant 5 year old at times, partly probably ND, partly just that he never developed emotionally beyond that point in some ways. Definitely display some NPD traits! Blames me, other people and circumstances rather than taking accountability himself.

In terms of kids, my 10 year old tends to blame me too when things go wrong @Rainbow03 But I think she also blames herself and is extremely self critical and will catastrophise over things. I'm also her safe person so gets the brunt of anything not going right at school (when she was attending) or when she's overwhelmed etc. Could it be that your 8 yo sees you as safe to 'unload' on Rainbow?

Just reading PDA in the Family by Steph Curtis right now and DD reminds me so much of her daughter. Highly recommended book!

@ItReallyDoesntMatterAnymore Im absolutely her safe space. But I can only imagine what would happen to her if I was not. I hate to label people because I’m not any kind of expert but I’m pretty sure my MIL is a narcissist, she displays all the characteristics. My partner I’m also pretty sure is ND. She did nothing to support him, he needed no support as he was perfect. He really isn’t, poor thing is emotionally underdeveloped and hoards. Even when talking to family and they explained how he would have to line everything up in a perfect line as a child, all the shoes in the hall etc, it screams ND. He is difficult enough with the hoarding but I can imagine some develop other personality disorders and anxiety issues if just left to suffer. I hope I alleviate some of her suffering by acknowledging her needs.

I'm sure you are @Rainbow03 it sounds like you are veru knowledgeable and empathetic to her needs. Interesting re the idea of your DP being emotionally underdeveloped, I think this maybe happens when needs aren't met or when brought up by emotionally immature parents. . Must link with the hoarding too.

My H can be so mature in some ways then switch to 5 year old having a tantrum! He now thinks he is ADHD as well as ASD, which would explain some of his struggles with emotional regulation and irritability/grumps! Whether he will pursue a diagnosis or seek help remains to be seen.

@ItReallyDoesntMatterAnymore my DP is absolutely perfect, nothing wrong with him (you only need to look in the garage or shed to see the extent of the damage) He is also brilliant in a disaster, he is extremely logical because he doesn’t do the emotional flapping around like many. Sometimes I wish I wasn’t just the safe space and also someone she thought about and loved but I’m a punching bag most of the time metaphorically.

I feel like a punching bag too, it's hard sometimes.

Might be wrong but I read somewhere that some autistics can be brilliant in a disaster as able to bot do the emotional flapping, me included although I feel it afterwards!

It’s so very difficult. We are polar opposites and most of the time I have no idea what to do or what she wants or what she needs. It’s a difficult “language” to learn, I find it extremely negative. She has so much negative self talk, I feel so sorry and I wish I could take it away.

My ex is like this. Been a very useful trait at times.

I haven’t posted for ages as I’ve been trying to go it alone (ie pretend it’s not as bad as it is). But then as usual something happened that I can’t just brush away and ignore, and I need the moral support offered by posters here. I need to be understood, I suppose.

My Mum died a few days ago. It’s her funeral on Friday. DH of course knows this, we have discussed it several times and I have gone over the plan for the day each time. We live in another country and are flying tomorrow, ie the day before the funeral (a short European flight). I just reminded DH that he would need his suit (if I didn’t remind him he’d be in jeans at DM’s funeral (I know this from (painful) experience), but if I remind him he gets cross). He then asked me if he had to travel in his suit tomorrow or if there would be the opportunity to get changed before the funeral. It really upset me. I KNOW he doesn’t take on board most of what I say, but my mum’s funeral! It was like a punch in the stomach. I managed to gasp, or perhaps hiss, that the funeral wasn’t tomorrow, it was the day after, to which he replied, “So there IS time to get changed, I don’t know why you couldn’t just answer a simple question, you’re so bad-tempered I feel like I’m treading on eggshells with you permanently”, and he also told me that I couldn’t possibly expect him to retain the funeral arrangements because I hadn’t written them down for him. (So there, at least, is an admission that he needs things in writing - because usually if I put things in writing he objects that I’m treating him like a child). How could I possibly expect him to know what was going on without written details? I replied, well, you know, you’re my DH and this is Mum’s funeral, I don’t think it’s too much to ask that you remember what day the funeral is…but it turns out that it’s all my fault, I know he’s got a lot on his mind right now (true enough, but MY MUM JUST DIED). I left the room in tears. Just now, half an hour later, he came and asked me which suitcase I wanted to take, as if nothing had happened. I’m so tired of having to move on from things without ever an apology or an attempt to understand my side. I think I could just about live with the lack of empathy and even the not retaining what I say; what really gets me is how he never, ever apologises, never accepts responsibility.

Yesterday my neighbours, having heard about DM, came round with a beautiful bouquet. I was really touched. I showed DH and said they were from the neighbours. He asked, “Are they for any particular reason?” I despair.

@supersparrow So so sorry to hear about your mum. I know how absolutely awful it is to be in another country when a parent dies. Having to deal with a difficult dh on top of it is excruciating.
These are the exact moments when you realise how alone you actually are. 💐

Yep DP is amazing in a crisis as has zero emotional reaction. Unlike me!

However he also has undeveloped emotional responses to most things. Acts like a self absorbed teenager. (He should be considered above everyone else, everyone is getting at him if and when they don’t agree with him, he has it harder than everyone, etc). And it’s great that he can be calm in a crisis, but actually I attribute this to having an undeveloped emotional response to things.

By undeveloped, I don’t mean he has a small emotional response (often it’s way over what the situation requires), more that it’s very base. He reacts with anger if something upsets him or he feels blamed, but if neither of those things are occurring he will react with no emotional response at all. He isn’t being blamed, he isn’t under attack, therefore an emotional response isn’t required.

Danger to self = big emotional response. Defend. Attack back. Do not under any circumstances get attacked.

Danger to someone else = clinical response.

Psychopath maybe?!

Yep that is awful.

Even now when you’re grieving his main concern is that HE isn’t blamed (for his own shortcomings: not remembering the day of the funeral) and instead trying to pass the blame to you.

Never mind if you had written it down he would probably have blamed you for babying him!

This is just very typical isn’t it? No empathy. Main worry is that he isn’t at fault.

I am sorry for you and your loss. Losing your mum is so painful. I hope you have other people in your circle you can lean on for the support you rightly deserve right now xxx

DP struggling with language again today!!!

DP: family member WILL do x (negative behaviour that annoys people which they only do some of the time. My family member!)

Me: well let’s not be too negative. Most of the time they don’t do that. I’m sure it will be fine.

DP: well I’m just saying they WILL do x and it WILL piss everyone off. I’m not standing for it!! I shall be telling them in no uncertain……

Me: (interrupts so he can’t go full flow about something which hasn’t actually happened!) maybe don’t be so definitive about it.

DP: I’m not!

Me: you are though. You keep saying they WILL do x as though it’s a certainty.

DP: I never said it was certain.

Me: yes, but you keep saying they WILL. With an emphasis is on “WILL”. That’s the same thing.

DP: no it isn’t. I’m just saying they WILL do that.

Me: and I’m saying that’s not definitive and maybe we should wait and see….

DP: I didn’t use the word “definite”. I just said they WILL!!

Me: (sigh) Ok I’m leaving the room now….

There is little understanding of the nuance of language. If a word isn’t stated directly then he didn’t say it. I can’t make the point that the language used implies the same thing. He gets fixated on the word not having been used. Again like arguing with a teenager. “I never said that!” Defensive.

I just wanted to try and look forward to Christmas and not in advance decide there and then that my family member would do x and y. It’s only occasionally they do this. Most of the time we all get on very well and have a lovely time. DP included. They’re good friends!But for some reason he loves to dwell on negatives that haven’t actually happened yet. He seems to enjoy stating that x behaviour (negative) is a certainty and then he likes to go off on one about how he will react and what he thinks about that and revelling in the drama of it all and actually getting quite angry there and then! (He has many a time had a proper go at me for something I haven’t said on the basis that he “knows” I WILL say it later!!!) When it hasn’t even happened and probably won’t.

I just walked off. His ability to make an argument out of thin air never ceases to amaze me!

Oh I'm sorry @supersparrow 😢. Will there be anyone you know well enough at the funeral to comfort you a little?

Checking in.