Married to someone with Asperger's/ASD/ND: support thread 13

[Daftasabroom]

New thread.

This thread is for those of us seeking to explore the dynamics of long term relationships with our ND partners. Some of us are ND ourselves, very many of us have ND children. It is a support thread, and a safe space, it does get emotional at times. Avoid sweeping generalisations if possible, try and keep it specific to you and your partner.

It's complicated and it's emotional.

The old thread is here.

That’s me. I don’t physically do anything. I just sit with the world going around and everything still needing to get done and nothing happening. I can’t parent I can’t do anything so I have to keep it locked away as it sucks all the life force out of me. I have c.f.s and I swear it makes me crash when I think too much.

💐@Rainbow03

I have c.f.s and I swear it makes me crash when I think too much.

Oh yes!!
Thats one reason why I’m so fearful of starting a separation. I think I’m going to massively crash and not recover from it, ME wise.
And counselling is making me crash when it’s heavy/emotional. Still worth it because manageable in that format and it helps me reframe and move on. But I wouldn’t do that on my own. The overwhelm is too big for me to handle.

@Vuurhoutjies welcome to our thread 😀😀
I hope you’ll find d the support or understanding g you need.

Youll see there is a mix of ASD and ADHD on this thread, both in our dh/dw and in ourselves. Some of pur partners are diagnosed but others aren’t. Or have been diagnosed very late in life.

And YY about how being asked more in one area (like work) means it affects everything else (like home).

Checking in (name changed too).

I wonder this too, is it possible to develop a NPD as a result of undiagnosed and unmanaged ND even?

I have probably said this before on here but for a long time I thought H was a covert narcissistic but then concluded that he has too much empathy to be a true narc, I think. Actually these threads helped me see that some of his behaviours, although similar to NPD, are probably due to ND. I might be wrong and he might well be both.

Welcome @Vuurhoutjies Hope these threads are helpful 😊

Still trying to process my Relate appointment yesterday, the counsellor was quite good but I feel I ended up talking a lot about H's better sides, to the point where she seemed to suggest that maybe if he worked on his behaviours and I had more respite/H taking on more of DD care and household stuff etc than maybe he might be worth another chance (I might have misunderstood this).

But, although he is willing, now that I want to separate, to work on his 'side' of stuff, I can't see that he CAN manage or change his ways. This was in relation to being sulky/snarly/huffy/snappy/throwing things. I was expecting her to say these behaviours were abusive, even if done without intent (I might have made this point, about it being due to not being regulated, rather than intending to scare or control me). Yet at the same time she recognised that it means I alter my behaviour, feel on edge etc and also at some point she ended up suggesting I could claim homelessness to get housed. Quite confusing in some ways!

I ended up saying that maybe a trial separation (probably whilst house sharing) might give H more time to process this, get used to the idea and also means me having more space and time for myself whilst he works on himself.

I'm a bit confused now, not in a bad way, just trying to make sense of it and also if I slipped into people pleasing!

Sounds like they didn’t have a bloody clue from what you’ve said. They are supposed to be pulling out your thoughts and helping you process them not leaving you with many more aren’t they?

@ItReallyDoesntMatterAnymore I ‘protect’ dh too. Insist on how good sides, how it’s not abuse but ASD, he doesn’t mean it etc…. Depending on who I have in front of me, I end up spending g more time explaining autism agd dh reactions than I speak about how I’m feeling, how when dh is doing X and Y, it’s deeply hurtful.

The counsellor I’m seeing atm is great.
But I think one big difference this time is that I was completely overwhelmed and a mess if I’m honest so I didn’t spend nearly as much time talking about his good sides and plenty of time talking about how hurt I am.

@SpecialMangeTout I think that is it, I end up protecting H, as if I don't want him classified as 'abusive' because I know he isn't like the men presented in the Why Does He Do That book or the Freedom Programme.

It's great that you found a good counsellor and that you can now focus on the hurt done to you x

Reflecting back she did listen to me re the hurt H's behaviours have caused me over the years and the counsellor did agree that maybe I'm too far down the road for this to be recoverable. We also talked about the almost parent and dynamic and how that is definitely a romance killer!

She did remind me thar I am nor responsible for him or his happiness/future. She said I seem to think about him and his feelings a lot and encouraged me to look at my own needs and how I can get them met. So some things were were definitely good about yesterday.

On this one I have thought about this a LOT and I've done some research. It seems to me that generally, it's acknowledged that NPD (or NPD traits) are generally considered to often happen as a result of childhood trauma and/or the child's brain not developing correctly due to poor parenting, outside events etc. Certainly, when I consider that almost every child I've ever met appears to be quite narcissistic, that makes sense - they have to LEARN not to be this way, and if they don't learn it, they carry these behaviours over into adulthood. On that basis, I think it's entirely reasonable to assume there's a lot of overlap between people who are ND and those who are more likely to develop NPD because by definition, those ND people are more likely to experience trauma or poor parenting, or struggle to learn certain lessons.

I think the thing about narcissists, particularly covert narcissists, is that they are completely unaware that they are the problem. If you consider that other personality disorders are generally often believed to at least be somewhat conscious that their reactions, emotions, behaviours are different to the norm, the very nature of narcissism means that narcissists cannot see that. They believe THEY are the norm and that everyone else is behaving oddly.

In the case of the very clear Covert Narcissist in our lives, I have had to find a place to reconcile the cognitive dissonance of hating him with every fibre of my being, while simultaneously feeling extreme pity for him. I believe he was hugely let down by his family, and then by the state and education systems and that has led to where he is today. I suspect he absolutely does have some ND as well, which of course was never spotted because of the issues he was experiencing as a child. Feeling those two things simultaneously is a very strange feeling.

@ItReallyDoesntMatterAnymore I don't know anything about your H so I can't say, but I think lots of Covert Narcissists are genuinely unhappy, which is why I feel sorry for them too, and their "empathy" is not really empathy in the way we think of it. I believe that they do feel sorry for that person who has had something terrible happen to them, for example. But it's still ultimately about them - and how bad it makes THEM feel - if that makes sense at all?

DH is not feeling well at the moment so I am really trying to be a bit more sympathetic. He took DD to see MIL last night so it was another night of me doing dinner, tidying up after etc so I left their food out and went to watch DS' sports practice. When we got back. DH was half asleep on the bed. He has a late start today so I told him to sleep in DD's room, she could sleep with me, and I'd get up, get kids sorted etc and he could have a lie in. Great.

But, I can't help being annoyed as it appears he still didn't go to bed until about 1. I don't understand it. he's exhausted. He's not feeling well. Why not just go to bed at a decent time and get a decent night's sleep?! He did get a lie in this morning but of course, WAS woken up by all the morning activity so it's not like he got a straight 8 or 9 hours. And he says he feels a bit better this morning, but not that much. And I just want to scream, "well why the FUCK didn't yo ugo to bed earlier then? You were half asleep at 9pm. Why not just GO TO BED?!"

this thing where they self sabotage really winds me up.

I’ve had a lot of that dynamic too. Looking at my own stuff (and not at all suggesting this is your situation) I realised that it was my enmeshment that made me step in to meet DH needs, then get resentful that he wasn’t meeting them himself.

Absolutely, although I probably didn't help as tend to waffle and maybe also not completely clear as to why I was there!

That explains it well, some of it might be true of H actually as I suspect his parents were although very loving, also immature and there was definitely trauma there.

@ItReallyDoesntMatterAnymore yes, and also, I truly believe that someone can have significant narcissistic traits, without necessarily being a full blown narcissist. And it's entirely possible that's particularly true of ND people whose parents didn't have the skills to manage it. DH has come out relatively well all things considered - and I put that almost entirely on him and the natural resilience and determination that I also see in DS, combined with him having very engaged grandparents - but his parents were, albeit with the best of intentions, awful parents.

I think it's entirely reasonable to assume there's a lot of overlap between people who are ND and those who are more likely to develop NPD because by definition, those ND people are more likely to experience trauma or poor parenting, or struggle to learn certain lessons This is really interesting.

I believe that they do feel sorry for that person who has had something terrible happen to them, for example. But it's still ultimately about them - and how bad it makes THEM feel - if that makes sense at all?

H's relationship with empathy is really 'interesting' . He has empathy in the abstract. So he hates hearing about horrible things people do to each other, say on the news. He can feel empathy for people expressing clear emotions that are not threatening to him ( so where he is not the cause of the upset they are feeling or whatever). He has no empathy if he has caused the upset, even accidentally, as he is entirely focussed on his own (defensive) feelings in that situation which utterly blocks his ability to empathise with the others. He has no empathy if he is having strong feelings himself such as anger or upset, again, he will just be focussed on himself.

So he hates hearing about horrible things people do to each other, say on the news. To be fair, so do I. I find it so upsetting and I can't DO anything about it. My mum was the same. So I tend to avoid it. I'm not sure that's really that good either though. BIL (covert narc) on the other hand revels in this sort of thing because he can then talk about how bad it makes him feel. Ick. DH probably has the healthiest response - he feels it, allows himself to feel it, and then processes the emotion and moves on.

He can feel empathy for people expressing clear emotions that are not threatening to him ( so where he is not the cause of the upset they are feeling or whatever). Totally normal. Although I'd say that in the case of BIL, I have come to realise that he doesn't truly empathise, it's more just that he can intellectually accept those emotions in someone else. If you look closely, there's no real empathy in his facial expression or responses.

He has no empathy if he has caused the upset, even accidentally, as he is entirely focussed on his own (defensive) feelings in that situation which utterly blocks his ability to empathise with the others. He has no empathy if he is having strong feelings himself such as anger or upset, again, he will just be focussed on himself. Yes, an inability to put himself into someone else's shoes or even just to acknowlege that even if he is upset, someone else may well be upset, and rightfully so, at the same time. The more extreme version of this is then using their upset to make someone else hurt, but refusing to see that secondary hurt as valid ("I had every right to say those things to you because I was upset, you don't have the right to feel hurt by them because it was your fault in the first place.")

I’ve seen this in my daughter. She feels sorry for others where she has had absolutely no part in the situation. If she’s played a part then it’s all the other persons fault. I think it’s just survival because if they did something bad then that means they are bad. When in survival you come first as protection.

He has no empathy if he has caused the upset, even accidentally, as he is entirely focussed on his own (defensive) feelings in that situation which utterly blocks his ability to empathise with the others. He has no empathy if he is having strong feelings himself such as anger or upset, again, he will just be focussed on himself.

Let’s honest there.
I’ve done that myself and I’m neither ND, nor a narcissist. If anything, I tend to be over empathetic.
I’m realising that I do have some trauma from childhood that I’ve never processed (so some stuff are huge trigger points for me). And I’ve been utterly burnt out.
When you are in a state of total overwhelm, I think being engulfed in your feelings, esp anger, is a pretty normal reaction. Maybe not the best. But being able to step back, calm down, analyse the situation, IS hard when no one has ever taught you how to do it.
eg There is no point expecting empathy from an autistic person who is in the middle of a meltdown.
And Yes trauma will impede that process too (and autistic people will have their share of trauma, maybe due to their upbringing, ND parents but also bullying, not fitting in etc….) But I think that saying being autistic is making people more likely to also narcissistic is going too far.

For me, the inability to put yourself in some one else’s shoes is visible outside of ‘making a mistake’ etc…
It’s dh deciding that he’ll still spend the day away at his mum’s when I’m ill with a virus and can’t feed myself (which he knows).

@SpecialMangeTout Its taken me 40 years to just come to the conclusion that no matter how much information I gather for and against someone, how much allowances and compassion I give them, sometimes they just aren’t nice people.

I hope you are ok. I have a virus and my c.f.s is bloody awful.

That’s is ALSO totally true!!

Struggling but I’ll be ok.
This virus really looked like Covid (who made me relapse badly with ME so now I’m needing a wheelchair) but so far I’m testing negative. So I’m crossing fingers it’s ’just a cold’ I’ll recover from