October 2024 - But we took you to Stately Homes!

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007.

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;
'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.
NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.
'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:
"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.
Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.
Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:
"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.
YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".
"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.
YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".
"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."
"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"
"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."
"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites
Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat for details.

Some books:
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa
This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:
"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"
I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:
"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".
Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwaite
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

I can’t believe how afraid of my MIL my partner is, the conditioning is unreal. We had a small incident, nothing major. I came up with a solution whilst he stood with no ideas other than I’ll ask what my mum thinks. She comes back with her idea, I didn’t agree. I mean if it was better then yeah we’d go with it but I thought my idea was better. He was just stood there going but my mum has said my mum has said. ( we are late 30’s early 40’s so adults!!) I ended up saying it’s just her opinion it’s not fact and I don’t agree. She later came over and made various comments about what I’d done to fix the solution. You need to take this down, this is wrong, I’d take it down right now. I was just firmly no sorry we doing it this way, if it doesn’t work out then so be it. It was stupidly unbelievable. He was so nervous to go against her opinion and it pissed me off he even asked her for it. They just get themselves into this position of power. She must hate me.

Gosh happyfarm that's restrained of you!
I end up saying things like
"your dead fucking relatives, who will never even know what decisions we make, don't rule my life!"
and
"I couldn't give a flying fuck what that controlling arse says! Who died and made her queen of all the universe, anyway?!".
Which of course there's never any sensible answer to, so it usually stops it all.

lol. I’m trying my best to hide my hand. I feel if I act out of anger I’ll only play into her hands more. I try my hardest to not let them get me off character or get too much of an emotional response from me. I know he’s had a lifetime of brainwashing from her so don’t want to do it’s me or her (currently that is) I’ve also never been someone who raises my voice, I don’t really like loud noises. I just back right off and don’t speak to her unless I really have to. I mean I have come from emotional neglect myself (unintentional) but this is something altogether different. My mum struggled but she wasn’t playing games with us, she was the same to me and my brother really. We don’t hate each other but my partners brother absolutely has a secret competition going on.

@binkie163 i would like to say goodbye to dm and go to her funeral i wouldn't go to the wake and play happy families I am deeply hurt and upset by her actions but I know it's because she is being manipulated by dsis

@Happyfarm yes it's horrific how family members can treat each other never in a million years did I think I would be in this situation. I knew dsis was bossy controlling and shit with money but until 18 months ago we were all really close or so I thought.

I was reading something about cults the other day. These dysfunctional families sound an awful lot like them don’t they?! It got me thinking about my dad. My mum was the emotionally neglectful one but my dad would often excuse her behaviour by saying “you know what your mum is like”. As a child that was completely unhelpful and she just got away with it.

My sister in law repeatedly posts on social media quotes that go along the lines of “family is everything”. She is lost in this system. Family don’t push out and alienate those who don’t comply.

I think cult leaders are often narcissists happyfarm.

IDK if I'd describe my family as being like one. Hmm.

My relationship with narc ex, definitely. A cult of me and him. Took two years after leaving to start "waking up" from it all and realise just how messed up that relationship was. Maybe I'll feel the same about my family if I ever go NC completely, IDK. I'm also unsure that I'll ever go NC completely with all of them. A few are basically nice people.

Excluded and alienated IDK about. Tricky one. Excluded by a sibling who I suspect is narc. For not complying? IDK, maybe, does poor health qualify as non-compliance? There's no attempts at inclusion, it's fit in with their plans/desires or f off, then badmouthing when you're forced into the latter through lack of other options.

This sibling and parent are gossips, always negative, so is gossip alienation? Other family members aren't particularly gossips, including me, but get sucked in at times by those who are. I'm trying to develop strategies to avoid that now I see it.

And they're on an information diet since I realized they're almost certainly gossiping about me, since they gossip to me about others. This makes conversation difficult. It's not as if they don't do small-talk, they do with others and have with me in the past, but these days I feel as though I'm either being ignored or being mined for information. Most disconcerting.

Mostly though what I feel is uncomfortable and ill at ease around my family, except those nice ones. I don't enjoy the meetups with difficult ones. I go now out of duty (in the past also out of hope it'd be ok, too) and it doesn't seem like they really enjoy my company either (I'm a disappointment I think, because I don't kowtow to them and I stand up for myself) and yet they're hell-bent on maintaining a relationship (or perhaps at the bare minimum an appearance of one?), why? It makes no sense to me.

I'm tired of thinking about them TBH. Tired of trying to work it out. I don't think any relationships should be this hard, that's the bottom line. I just want to live my life without them taking up space in my head. I want to walk away from meetups, with anyone, smiling and feeling upbeat, happy I went to see them. Not upset/annoyed/pissed off, worn out and glad it's over.

@Happyfarm my sister in law does this too. But like her husband (my brother) she comes from a dysfunctional family too or they would not have found each other and remained dysfunctional. As I see it my sister in law must have been emotionally neglected at the very least as she cannot emotionally connect to her child. There are lots of other things I won't go into. She bangs on in her whatsapp status about 'blood is thicker than water', 'love of a family is everything' and, famously, 'some mother in laws treat their daughter in laws like their own daughters'.

If you didn't know her you'd think she has all these people, family, friends, even work colleagues in her life that she is close to and mean the world to her. Reality is that I think she's very lonely and empty inside, like all my family. Everyone is on their own whilst abusing each other.

She spends her free time scrolling on her phone or buying her daughter some crap as a 'sign of love' to fill some kind of void.

Happy people with fullfilling relationships don't bang on about it on social media.

I'm struggling today.

Phone call from Parents asking "what are we doing on Christmas Day this year?". I said they were with me last year so it's my sibling (Golden Child) this year". I genuinely thought they'd forgotten.

It turns out this has been sparked by the golden child asking them where they are going with me this year! (Golden child has seemingly decided his family are spending it together).

I explained it's me one year, sibling the next. (We do alternate years with my parents one year then my in-laws the next year).
No response from them and I then changed the subject.

Then tonight it's all about how upset they are at MY response - not that golden child has ditched them for the day.

So again I'm the 'problem child'.

This has really upset me and I have to say I'm blaming golden child. We don't speak and I'm not going to give them the enjoyment of me contacting them.

Spoke to my DH about it at length. We have worked out a way to see both sets of Parents but it's going to logistically be a struggle for us.

I initially said no. I'm not doing it. It's golden child that has done this. DH is concerned that this could likely be the last or one of the last Christmas Days for my Parents and for my sake (as I could not live with myself if they did pass on and I'd not spent some time with them on Christmas Day or know they were alone on Christmas Day), that we just see both sets.

I said this may set a precedent though but DH said it's my decision as he doesn't want me to blame myself.

Sounds like you are getting drawn into an emotional argument again which is what they want. A simple no we have plans this year, then grey rock and deflect. I find it best to pretend how would a non emotional person respond to the request and go with that. What’s to say it’s anyone’s last Christmas, that’s just fear and guilt and shame talking. It’s ruined your day already and that’s the power they have pushing your emotional buttons.

Laura your parents won't be alone on Christmas Day, they have each other! They'll be together!

I wouldn't bust a gut rushing around appeasing them. I'd see them Boxing Day or New Year's Eve or something. You'll still have seen them over the festive period.

Why does it specifically have to be Christmas Day? Why ruin your own Christmas Day and turn it into a stress-fest, just to make their already-nice Christmas Day together even nicer?

GC is doing what suits themselves and ditching the long standing arrangement, it doesn't mean you have to step into the void, regardless of what GC or your parents want.

Their reaction isn't GC's doing, it's their reaction, their own doing, don't absolve them of blame for their guilt tripping behaviour or of responsibility for dealing with their own emotions by blaming GC. You do you (hosting parents and in-laws on alternate years), what your parents or GC do on the in-between years isn't your concern or your problem to fix.

If you mentally stop taking responsibility for your parents happiness you'll be able to stop blaming GC for not providing them with that happiness on the years you can't. Their happiness is their own responsibility, not yours or GC's. They chose to marry each other and to stay married. I'm sure they can find some way of celebrating Christmas Day together that's enjoyable. If they can't, the state of their marriage isn't your problem either! They'll just have to each call up all their single or childless friends respectively, to see who's at a loose end that might like to spend Christmas with them.

@JustLaura I am sorry you are struggling today I have the opposite problem we always used to spend Christmas at dsis house with dm and dh cousin my dsis best friend and her children as she is now divorced we are now obviously exclude so have Christmas at home threw myself into redoing the dining room last year which helped we've been saying the last few years it might be dm last Christmas but she's still here so i find it difficult missing out on spending time with her but the root of my problems is my dsis really not my dm

I actually asked my mother to join us for Christmas Day this year, she ummed and ahhed about it, so I told her to think about it, after to going to 2 of my sisters houses, one in the same town and one who lives about 3 hours away, the last couple of years.

A month later when I asked what she had decided, she said she was going to stay at home and have everyone over.

I don't know why it upset me, well I do, it's because she would do anything else but come up to mine for Xmas. So I used my boundaries and said no thanks, we'll stay at home, there's 5 of us and it's a lot. I said I'll call over and say happy Christmas and everything but we won't stay for dinner.

The sister who lives 3 hrs away probably won't be there either as she has a 5 Yr old dc so I'm assuming she'll stay home because of Santa and all that.

So she'll just have my other 2 sisters who are the favourites.

I'm having a wobble, because I want to reach out but I don't want to either. Still haven't spoken to my mother since I met up to try and sort it out. That's coming up to 2 weeks.

I spoke with a counsellor yesterday, who validated me and my feelings. This isn't the first time I've stood up for myself, but it is the first time I haven't backed down first. I did reach out to the one sister who text me last week, but it was just surface stuff.

Aaaaahhhh! My head is melted.

I'm just so angry. But feeling strong and feeling like if they can't accept this is who I am and how I feel, then why am I bothering trying.

Im going nowhere Xmas day. I’ve got my two kids and partner. I’ll probably invite my mum as she’s helped me an awful lot with my kids. I think I’ve come to terms and let go of the anger about my upbringing. She wasn’t a great mum to me growing up but that’s all on her. She has been a really helpful and attentive grandparent and it’s going some way to build the bond (she’ll never be a person I open up to emotionally but I accept it). I might invite my partners grandparents. They were ostracised by my MIL long time ago. The grandmother is getting over cancer so I feel she might want to come and join the chaos. They have been nothing but kind and I think the MILs treatment of them has been awful. But expected, she’s a narc.

I saw this little flip book today and thought of this thread - you will all get it!

ADULTING FAMILY-TRAUMA STYLE

I’ll add an image as a preview

Has anyone had to navigate infertility with a family background like this?

Myself and DH are TTC 2 years now, diagnosed endo in that time, had surgery, and IVF is around the corner for us. I've told my GC sister a few things about this during our "getting along nicely" stage a few months ago (when she was also newly loved up with a new man, which usually helps her to act like a good human for a while). She was somewhat supportive at the time. I shared about the endo with NMom earlier this year in a moment of despair. Again, half supportive.

Since then, GC sis has told me that her and new fella had a chemical pregnancy and are actively trying after a few months together, and she's earmarking a room in her new house as nursery... I had to go back to LC after this (along with another few reasons). And Nmom has asked GC sister if I'm pregnant and that's why I've gone silent...because of course it couldn't be anything to do with her or her terrible treatment of me.

It's a really lonely, vulnerable time. My support network isn't huge, and i find it hard to talk to anyone about this because it's such a misunderstood thing for anything that's not had to go through it. I'm finding the total lack of support, empathy, understanding or care from my family particularly difficult around all of this. Also realising that growing up the way I did, REALLY impacted my ability to think about being a mother, and I still have a somewhat negative view of it all, despite knowing how much myself and DH long for a child. It's a horrible minefield of a thing to navigate.

@wonderingwonderingwondering I’ve not had to deal with infertility but I don’t think it’s any different to any difficult situation where narcs are involved. They simply don’t care, won’t care. Golden child probably got jealous and worried that you would get there owed attention from the narc mum. It’s not the same but weeks after my partner and I got our house his brother had decided they needed a bigger house. Same with other things we’ve bought. We buy some scones, SIL has baked 100’s for BIL and posted endless pictures. It’s not as serious as your situation but they will have to out do anything that they perceive brings you attention. They have what think is a type of umbilical cord of attention and approval still connected to their mums and they both live off it. I wouldn’t be telling them anything as it’s an unconscious learned survival behaviour. I’m sorry it’s just so inconsiderate.

Thanks @Happyfarm. That's pretty solid advice. I'm realising I shared in the hope that it might help to forge a relationship with them. There was significant family trauma as kids and I got completely and totally abandoned and dismissed. I've still got so much grief over how my mother has never shown up for me, and when confronted funnels the blame back at me for leaving at 18 and not doing much to maintain the relationship since. Like that was a conscious choice I took or she played no part in that survival strategy.

There are no grandchildren yet, so nmum's interest would be from that angle. She desperately wants to be able to compete with her sister who has GCs coming out of her proverbial. I have this terrible instinct that GC sister will get pregnant quickly and easily and the excitement of that and dynamic will exclude me even more, while I'm dealing with the horrible reality of infertility. Ouch, it hurts.

@wonderingwonderingwondering they are all arseholes. The golden child will do absolutely anything to maintain the supply,
it’s as important as the air they breath. They need to project the superiority that the original narc has projected onto them. Sorry they are all long since lost. Like us all you are going to have to surround yourself with those who actually care about you and protect yourself from your family. It’s a lifelong dynamic and programming. It hurts, so much of it hurts but you can’t find and will never find any solace in your family. Your sister wants the pregnancy for supply from your mum and your mum wants the pregnancy for supply from the wider family and world. Any children they have will be born into dysfunction. It’s really sad.

I wish you luck@wonderingwonderingwondering with your journey with IVF. I have a child I share with my ex who basically used me and coerced me. Some miscarriages and then a second with a new partner at 40 but she now has a narc family too. The whole thing is desperately complicated and sad. But I bet you’ll make a great parent because we have something that these people don’t and will never process. We actually love without transaction. Stay away, the stress will do you no good and good luck again.

@SamAndAnnie My Parents are elderly and in ill health. My Dad doesn't speak hardly at all on a bad day due to his health, so I do feel guilty most of the time as I can't imagine how that can feel.

They have limited friends and we are not from a large, close family.

I feel the onus is on me all the time as golden child is always excused.

@Skinnymalinksmalogenlegs

I can go for days now being ok with it all (perhaps even making peace with it all accepting this is just the way it will be).

I am still in the 'Santa' phase with my children and that's another factor.

I feel so much guilt that potentially I'm not giving the children the full 'Santa' experience as I'll be rushing to my Parents and then to the In-laws.

DH is very understanding and as he thinks this is likely the last year they will both be alive for a Christmas (Dad is very ill) and thinks I will cope better knowing we did what they wanted on Christmas Day.

Then I think golden child has ditched them which makes me angry and sad.

Then I think it's just another day!

I constantly question if I'm doing things for them or for me?

It's so tiring.

I understand @wonderingwonderingwondering

I often questioned if I was physically and mentally sabotaging myself as I blamed myself for not being a good enough Daughter.

I feel like I've come through that now though but all the little digs, sly comments, arrangements made to not include me - really effect me.

try to console yourself with thinking about how awful and insecure your sister must be to have to rush to outdo you every time. I have a similar sister who would copy things I did or had. So for example if I had a new kitchen bin she would get the same one etc . Ridiculous really but it really wound me up.
Now I have been frozen out and she is now pally with my mum and I have been sidelined. It really hurts but I know that my sister will never be happy. It is sad and it breaks my heart but she is simply incapable of it. I bet your sister is the same and having a baby ( if she does ) may bring a period of increased attention until the novelty wears off but it is no.basis for becoming a parent ! Could be a disaster in fact.
But one thing I have to say is that it is easier to not give them any ammunition to use against you at all. I communicate as little as possible these days.

@flapjackfairy they must be so very insecure with zero identity of their own. No way would I be trying to copy others for attention, especially my own mum.

My SIL has the same hobbies, same clothes, same beliefs, same pets, same everything as my MIL. It’s so odd, go and be free and find your own personality and friends and likes. My BIL and SIL are mirroring my MIL. It’s really odd. It’s a parents job to help grow each child’s independent identities. I’m lucky I have the scapegoat, he was left alone so much he’s had to find himself but I feel so sorry for how neglected he must have felt. He struggles with keeping stuff, all his emotions and his comfort has been placed onto objects. His things is his safety net, its so sad.