October 2024 - But we took you to Stately Homes!

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007.

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;
'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.
NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.
'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:
"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.
Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.
Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:
"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.
YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".
"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.
YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".
"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."
"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"
"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."
"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites
Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat for details.

Some books:
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa
This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:
"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"
I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:
"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".
Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwaite
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

Hi everyone. I’m so glad this thread exists. I’m low contact with my (very emotionally immature and abusive) mother, although unfortunately saw her today. First thing she did was remark how fat I was (I’m recovering from a lifelong eating disorder and slimmer than her) then she made sly diggs for the duration of my short visit. I left feeling utterly exhausted and broken.

HebburnPokemon wow what a complete bitch she is 😳. Who tries to sabotage someone's recovery from ED? I can only recommend never speaking to her again. What she did was the mental equivalent of taking a sledgehammer and trying to break your legs with it.

Re: someone's shitty dad -

he has used the wrong stamp and that the birthday with cash in it will not arrive.

This is bollocks. The post office would contact you and tell you to come collect whatever-it-is and pay the postage, plus admin fee for their hassle. He's after the kudos of having sent a gift without actually sending the gift, whilst simultaneously causing upset to a child and getting off on the power trip of having manipulated you into being the one to carry out his evil deeds and upset your own child. What an utter cunt.

He told me that "I did abandon my brother" when a I was 14 and he was 10 to leave my.mother (who was abusive) and brother in Australia to come and live with him in London. My brother has a lot of anger towards me about this

Your brother has two parents, you are not one of them. You can't abandon someone you were never responsible for.

Just a tiny dark little vent.
My mother will turn on 80 on Saturday.
Luckily I don't live nearby. But there will be A Phonecall.
I suspect being 80 will provide a great resource for her in using pity plays to manipulate.
I'm frustrated with myself for not having the backbone to go no contact.
I feel like crying from the dread of talking to her - this is ridiculous.

@Whatamiseeing2 don't answer the phone, you know what's coming, the fact you are already dreading it, it will be on your mind all week, I give you permission to not answer the phone, go out, visit friend, go shopping, be unavailable, don't play the game xx

*SamAndAnnie *Thanks! The silver lining is that DH was there and finally witnessed her behaviour (She had a cold so all decorum was off). Until that point he didn't understand why I get so anxious before seeing her.

How do your DHs react/think about your situation?

@VivienneDelacroix I resonate with this so much. You always leave a conversation feeling confused, deflated, shocked, right?

It's amazing how I never stop feeling shocked by conversations despite my own mother being like this my whole life.

Have you been tempted to go NC?

Personally i think they know exactly what they are doing and enjoy being spiteful

Absolutely. Deep down they are bitter and depressed, so making you feel crap is their relief from their own grief.

Their world seems so small know. Perhaps it's jealousy? Were they treated this way

Yes, and yes.

grieving people that are still alive

:( indeed

Thank you @binkie163 I don't think I have the courage to not talk to her as the fallout would probably be even worse but it still helps so much for someone to say it would be ok to not talk to her - helps counterbalance all the "but it's your mother" programming.

Definitely understand the grieving while someone is alive but that doesn't give me closure unfortunately. I get anxious going through in my head what will happen when either of them dies will I even be told

Argh I lost you for a bit! Still a scapegoat lol!!

Actual photo of me!

Just wanted to say I am another one with a similarly toxic mother. I can totally relate to so much on the above posts. The dread about seeing her, the questioning of myself’ Did she really say that/ am I overreacting/why does she seem to feel so negatively about me/why am I never good enough/why does my sister not get this treatment’.
OH has witnessed some truly appalling behaviour from her so he knows what she’s like, but other members of the family think I need to just accept she’s old etc etc.
Shes never been a good or loving mother. I struggle to work out if she is a narcissist or has a personality disorder. I tried going to counselling with her for a while, but she made it clear that she thought I was the problem rather than herself. The counsellor said she couldn’t work with her after a few sessions.
It’s left me feeling so lonely and sad. If I go on holiday she never asks about it. She has barely any interest in her grandchildren. My sister is the Golden Child. She doesn’t support me or want to know because it jeopardises her position with my mother. I feel very isolated.

@Spendysis my dad has had 3 hospital admissions in last 3 months, one was for fitting a pacemaker. I went NC with siblings as well as parents so they don't tell me but dad's carers let me know. I have no doubt they won't tell me when he dies but I wouldn't go to funeral anyway.
@Obsessedwithsourdough when your mum is old and frail she will suddenly love bomb you, you were always her favourite blah blah but it will be because golden child won't bother providing all the care mum wants .... Then she will expect you to martyr yourself. Your mum's expectations, wants and needs are her sole focus.
I remember my mum saying in later life she felt lonely and unwanted, well I did as a child, so hard luck. They are incapable of having friends so they expect the very people they neglected to look after them. They have zero shame.

@AttilaTheMeerkat I’m so sorry to hear about the loss of your aunt. I’m sure the funeral and estate process will be a nightmare. I bet Dumb and Dumber are a joy to watch.

To everyone talking about ageing abusive parents. Trust me, the manipulation gets worse. The abuse will continue, often wrapped up in “I can’t help it. I’m old.”

Expect neediness and victimhood with a healthy dose of entitlement. You may find yourself suddenly a favourite child. You will find the sibling roles shift round. The favourites may disappear.

Feel no guilt. Don’t get sucked in. Don’t be forced to isolate yourself. Do NOT have the f**kers live with you.

i write as one who just about survived the last three years of my utterly vile mother in law’s (The Hag) life. 10 months of that - off and on - was spent living here. I nearly lost my mind thanks to her severe emotional abuse.

Thankfully, Mr Monkey didn’t sink. He, after 55 years of abuse, stood up to her and reduced contact. She died lonely and bitter in February. All self-induced.

We’re doing ok. He did counselling for trauma and CPTSD. I’m OK - bipolar low and thinking of going back into counselling - but I KNOW I would feel MUCH worse if The Hag was still here with her mountains of spleen.

Stay strong. Do not capitulate to their utter shit.

I remember my mum saying in later life she felt lonely and unwanted, well I did as a child, so hard luck.

Love this.

I get so sad reading about what family have done to each other. I thought if I could gather as much information as possible I’d be able to put it into a context that I could live with. I thought I could play the game and just live with it. But it’s not really possible. All the understanding in the world doesn’t make any of the way I feel any better. I don’t like playing the game, I’m a soft person, it slowly kills me living within it knowing it’s going on all around me. My whole life is shaped somehow around it. I think the only people who get respite are the ones who have gone NC. To do this I will loose my partner and break my children up. I wish there was a magic wand for all of us. I can shield my children as much as possible but it’s really not fair on them. I’m sorry for everyone in this awful situation.

Ditto! You reap what you sow.

Hi,

Don't know if I belong here, but reading the first post made so much sense to me.

There's too much to go into, too many incidents, but the one that made me post was last week.

We had a row, where, in front of my 19 Yr old dd, she said that my husband would want to grow up and become more responsible. This is a long running tale, she thinks he is controlling, and has told my daughter before that she told me to leave him years ago.

My husband is not controlling, she just doesn't like him or the fact that he sticks up for me and has done for the past 25 years.

Too many stories to tell.

I asked her to meet me to sort it out, where when I asked her if she thinks I am some weak woman who can't leave (if her lies were true) and she said yes. I have never been so hurt or insulted. So it all came out then, how I feel like the black sheep, she cares more about my siblings than me. I have 3 children, she only cares about eldest dd. She has other grandchildren who she favours.

She refused to apologise for her part in the argument or speaking about dh in front of his dd like that. She hasn't spoken to me since, it's been a week now. I told her if she wants a relationship, she needs to make an effort because I am done.

She has been texting my dc though.

One of my sisters, who I am not overly close to, I am not close with any of the 3 of them really, text me to ask if I wanted to go for coffee at the weekend. I thought about it and said I didn't think it was a good idea, I'm really hurt and upset and I didn't want to get her involved.

One of my other sisters has also been texting my eldest dd.

Dad died 2 years ago. Yesterday, she sent a picture of a cushion that you can get made from clothes, a keepsake thing, onto the family group chat. I feel like that was manipulative.

I can explain more, but the first post really struck me. She says I don't know how hard it is for her since dad died. She is my mother how can I speak to her like that. Brings up things that happened 25 years ago... that we're supposed to have moved on from.

I have ordered Susan Forward's book.

Just feel really lonely and down at the minute. I have a counselling appointment on Thursday.

Just needed to vent to people who seem to understand.

@Skinnymalinksmalogenlegs Im really sorry, it’s just an awful situation when you realise what your family is. Dysfunction goes extremely deep and it’s intwined throughout the whole family. Absolutely everyone is playing a part to the narc leader. It’s extremely complicated to unpick and talking to someone who can help is a great idea. You have done nothing wrong, none of us have, we have been dealt a shit hand of cards but there is hope. you can step back from the play and the role you’ve been assigned. It causes a lot of grief so definitely get as much support as possible.

@Skinnymalinksmalogenlegs you're describing classing triangulation.

Can you go low contact?

Ok, thanks 😊. What is triangulation?

I am seriously thinking of it. No one is talking to me at the minute anyway.

What Is Triangulation?
Triangulation is when a toxic or manipulative person, often a person with strong narcissistic traits, brings a third person into their relationship in order to remain in control. There will be limited or no communication between the two triangulated individuals except through the manipulator. It may appear in different forms, but all are about divide and conquer, or playing people against each other.

So if you didn't have to deal with the fallout, you'd happily not take the phone call about the 80th birthday WhatAmISeeing ? Because here's the thing, you don't have to deal with the fallout, you can swerve those phonecalls too. That's what NC is, a blessing, the absence of drama, a refusal to accept awful behaviour from them.

Love the pic Happyfarm. Now I understand better what a golden child is, why I'm not it and why one of my siblings appears to have no real personality of their own, instead morphing into an opposite-sex version of whichever partner they're dating at the time, every time, which is extremely creepy to watch slowly occur.

My husband is not controlling, she just doesn't like him or the fact that he sticks up for me and has done for the past 25 years

Slinky(? Or whoever it was). My ex called my therapist controlling and full of crazy ideas and bullshit, because she was teaching me to stand up for myself! I've been called rude by parent for deciding to do something other than what they wanted me to do. I'm treated as if I'm a problem and unreasonable, likely to kick off at any moment. I'm actually pretty chill and just won't take any bullshit or be bullied. I think it's a thing. You (or someone else) won't do whatever they want so you/they are XYZ negative thing, because in their narc mind everyone doing whatever the narc wants them to do is the only reasonable course of action.

Monkey thanks for the warning.
I'd been wondering if when spouse to narc dies, they'd gravitate in this direction to have more than one DC close by. I wonder if GC has had the same thoughts, hence plans to exit themselves to the other end of the country, I think another is possibly being lined up as personal slave, although they have enough on their plate and it'll sink them, I hope/think they have the courage to say no. I'm willing and able to disappear if necessary, so it won't be landing on my doorstep anyway however hard anyone tries.