October 2024 - But we took you to Stately Homes!

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007.

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;
'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.
NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.
'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:
"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.
Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.
Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:
"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.
YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".
"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.
YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".
"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."
"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"
"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."
"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites
Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat for details.

Some books:
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa
This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:
"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"
I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:
"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".
Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwaite
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

@VWSC3 oh, this is so hard, I get it. Can we hope that this will pass?

I recognise you, but I don't have all your backstory with me here - is there any way at all you can take a few hours, maybe a day, to yourself and just cry and let it all out? Would it help not having to keep it all together just for a little while?

@Twatalert Thank you for replying.
Its the unfairness of it I can’t cope with. The narcs get to live their life the way they want to, heads held high because they take zero accountability for their actions, and nobody really sees who they are.
Meanwhile people believe the smear campaign about me.
I think everything has taken its toll recently. It wasn’t that long ago that the car was constantly parked outside our house watching us for months on end and I just have this overwhelming feeling of being trapped.

@VWSC3 I get it. That nobody sees them for who they are and others believe their campaign. Remember narcs are deeply unhappy and insecure and their followers are puppets. None of them is to be given any credit whatsoever. We don't here.

I know you have posted a lot before. Weren't you thinking of moving away?

It sounds trite, but there are things you can do to start breaking free. It's hard or impossible to imagine, but with help you may be able to find this inner oopmh again to start making tiny changes. Are you seeing a therapist?

@Twatalert Ive read so much that narcs are insecure and unhappy inside, but I don’t see it. Between mine and DHs family there are 3 women with strong Narc traits, one of which is a walking stereotype Narc and ticks every single box. But what comes off all 3 of them is a lot of self-belief, like they are the most important person in the room and everyone must bow down to them. And the craziest thing of all is people oblige.

Yes, I’ve considered moving away. I would move away in a heartbeat, every fibre of my being wants to get as far away from here as possible (DH is on board too), but I don’t think the DC would forgive me. We have broached the subject with them, but they are adamant they want to stay. They have good friends and are very settled, so it would feel selfish to leave. But at the same time it feels like I’m slowly imploding.

Im not currently seeing a therapist, no. I have seen quite a few for long periods in the past. Some of them believed that moving away for a fresh start would have been a good idea (though stressed that they don’t normally advocate running away from your problems!), but they could see I was trapped in the trauma here. But we weren’t in a position financially to do it back then. And now it feels like the wrong time for the children. If the children remain living here as adults I wouldn’t want to move away either and leave them in the vipers nest.

I feel like I need to make changes, but I don’t know what. My family in particular have this town pretty much sewn up. They are well connected and always seem to know the right person in the right place. I don’t feel like I can move on with my life. I struggle to trust new people in the town, because the amount of times I’ve spoken to someone new, started to feel ‘safe’ then they’ve told me they know someone in my family is unreal.

@VWSC3 The first thing I was going to ask was can you move. I'd be really wary about letting your children control this, TBH (you haven't said how old they are). My worry would be that in the long term it will lead to resentment. Your wellbeing and mental health matter. You matter. In twenty years will your kids look back and say they had no idea and wish that you'd moved rather than making yourself ill with stress by staying put. But I also wanted to say that the playground days don't last forever, so having those encounters in that location is naturally limited. I did move away from my home town a long time ago and have never been back and I don't think I ever will. It really helped me. I just needed to be somewhere that didn't have constant reminders of trauma.

Is there a way to 'sell' a move to your kids in a positive way - it's an adventure, it's a step up, you are moving to somewhere with things they don't have access to now?

@CheekySnake Thanks for the reply.
My children are in those tricky school years of being in junior school and in high school. I’ve left it too late. But we just weren’t in a position to move before. The thing is I feel like I’m a walking pressure cooker here, but I don’t want the children to resent me for making us move. I don’t want the children looking back on their childhood and thinking I was selfish and upended their lives when they didn’t want to.

They know about the family dynamics. I’ve always told them in an age appropriate way. They also know I’ve been left with anxiety from my experiences. I suffer with panic attacks, so it’s not something that’s easily hidden now they are older. But at the same time I don’t want them to know I NEED to move to feel better because I don’t want them to feel they HAVE to, if that makes sense.

@VWSC3 why can’t you be honest and tell them you do have to move so that you can feel better. Isn’t that the advice we would give our children. I would absolutely be telling my children to move from something that brought them great distress. You don’t matter any less than anyone else. Children move all of the time for all sorts of reasons. My brothers wife’s sisters kids have moved 5 times due to work and they are absolutely ok. I think it would give you your power back. I think when we look at the road ahead and both roads are difficult we have to pick one, one where it is not total inhalation. You are not as trapped as
you think.

Wasn’t there that film where he was trapped and he chewed off his own arm to survive. We need to choose ourselves and believe a little.

In the future, how do you think your children will feel when they realise that you made yourself miserable and ill in order to spare their feelings?

It's potentially a heavy burden for them to carry.

@Happyfarm and @CheekySnake I’m scared moving will make the DC unhappy, and I can’t stand the thought of making them unhappy, I’d rather feel unhappy myself.
I know the answer is staring me in the face that we should move, but I hate the thought of doing that to my children just because of these toxic, evil relatives, who will no doubt use it against me in the future.
The thing is, with the internet these days there is no escape from abusers, no matter what you do. I move and they will just hunt my DC down on social media as soon as they are old enough to use it. And the pain will continue. The modern world traps you/your DC no matter where you are.
So it doesn’t feel like a clear cut way to escape.

@VWSC3 I know that when you come from a miserable, abusive home, protecting your children from the same is so, so important. You don't want them to have a moment of fear or unhappiness. But both of those things are part of life sometimes. And if you are unhappy, they will know. It will be in the atmosphere in the house. You say you are scared - but you're scared of a what if. It might not even happen. And it is possible to escape from toxic relatives, even in the age of the internet. Change your phone number and don't tell them what it is. Move house and don't tell them. Start new social media accounts, if you have to have them, set to private, with handles and usernames that can't be easily figured out. Make a decision not to torture yourself by stalking the relatives online. Have clear cut rules for your kids as well (who, BTW, might benefit from not posting their entire lives online. Neither of my kids are on social media and they're young adults now. It can be done). Escape is possible. It takes work, but it's possible.

FWIW I'm extra sensitive to the idea of staying in an abusive relationship/in the orbit of one 'for the kids' because it was one of the (many) excuses that my mother used for staying in an abusive marriage for so long. It might have suited her to believe that, but honestly I think it was a lie she told herself because it was easier than leaving and I resent her for it. I wasn't responsible for her choice to keep us there. I was a child.

I wanted to add - I cut contact with my abusive father in the 90's, just before the internet really took off. I moved city and changed my name and started a new life. He never found me.

@VWSC3 It is much easier for kids to make new friends at school, then uni, work and on out into the world. It may seem to them it will be the end of the world all teenagers think like that but once settled in they will be fine.
Even difficult bastards like me make friends. I have moved all over and eventually abroad, people just come into your life xx
You sound exhausted, feelings are not comfortable and there is no easy way to deal with them, I just shut down if I'm honest, I find feelings overwhelming.
I honestly think moving away from your batshit family is the only safe thing to do and make sure they don't know where you are moving to.
I wouldn't want my dogs round your family, certainly not kids, imagine how hard it will be when they love bomb your kids to side with them. Your kids are anxious about change like we all are, these days they can still keep in touch, it's not witness protection, although that wouldn't be a bad idea!

@VWSC3 you are an equal member of the family and aren't required to tolerate abuse to the point you feel trapped and suicidal. As a parent you would prioritise your children, but not like that!

May I suggest that if we suffer through abuse our judgement is clouded? Your fear that your children will never forgive you is a form of catastrophising. You probably worry that you'd somehow ruin their lives. But consider the effect the poor state of your health has on them. There is no 'they don't know the full extent, I'm hiding it from them etc'. They know on a visceral level even if they don't have capacity yet to think all the thoughts and connect all the dots. They know the fear and all the feelings you feel towards your relatives and they are likely absorbing some of it forever.

Sit with your husband and think of moving options and how to break this to your kids. You are making this decision for your family, even if it doesn't seem like it. You have been feeling suicidal and it's affecting them, if you believe it or not.

VWSC3 you need to move. Somewhere nobody knows you. Start again and don't tell anybody where. You need space too. A gap in the day where nobody needs you. Therapy to let it out somewhere and space to deal with your feelings daily too. Like getting signed off (yes you are ill enough) so you're home when DC are at school, or getting a babysitter for the evening and going somewhere quiet just to be alone with your thoughts, or taking a week's holiday in a b&b or caravan alone. You can't thrive surrounded by toxicity and it's unfair to expect yourself to.

As someone who spent a lot of time during childhood being "looked after" (neglected) by a relative who'd suffered a bereavement and was deep in grief. I can tell you that your DC know how you feel. They'll be taking their cue from you and learning dysfunctional ways of being. They see you trying to hide your panic and tears and they do the same, hiding their reactions to it. I used to be on eggshells the entire time I was around this relative, not wanting to do something to accidentally set off their upset. It could be something as innocuous as a song coming on the radio and they'd try to pretend they weren't about to cry and I'd not know what to do because I didn't want to draw attention to something they were so obviously trying to hide. So I'd wait out the song, awkwardly, not knowing where to look and trying to keep a poker face, before switching the radio off and going to do something else. Your children know. Don't think for a moment that they don't. They'll be happy to move if it means they can have their mum back and stop tiptoe around her.

Also wvcs3 don't put any responsibility on your children to be ok with a move. You talk about not wanting them to feel they have to move, for your welfare. Don't put it on them like that. You're the parents, you make the decisions, just tell them you're moving and why, then let them have their reactions to it and as their parents you accept that. It's DC job to kick back against parental decisions, it's how they learn to be independent. So just don't worry about it, whatever their reactions may be, it's just children being children. You don't have to convince them like you would with another adult. This decision to move isn't something they have to be on board with or happy about. They just have to do it because you're the parents and that's what you've decided. When you start to recover in a new location and all your DC have a better relationship with you because of it, they'll realise it was the right decision and they'll make new friends. Most people don't stay in contact with school friends their entire lives anyway, you're not ripping them away from something they'd otherwise be keeping.

I was a "perfect" child when at my relatives place. I'd offer to make the tea, to pop to the shop for milk, I'd help with house chores, offer to do the dishes etc... and although I didn't have a problem I'd take frequent bathroom breaks. All this because I was hiding from them and the elephant in the room - their emotions that nobody must ever mention. Nobody told me that - it was the message I received by them trying to hide all their difficult feelings. Then whenever I had my own difficult feelings about anything guess what I did? Yep. I hid them, kept them inside, told nobody. And suffered needlessly for doing so.

@VWSC3 as a teen I suspected my father was suicidal.

I'm not saying it to make you feel horrible. I'm saying to show that staying put isn't the golden option you may think it is. There is suffering for you all either way. The difference is that the discomfort of moving may be temporary for your kids and they may get a more relaxed mum.

Thank you so much for the replies, I really appreciate all of your words of wisdom and advice. I feel like I’ve hit rock bottom with everything today and it has been so much help to know you are listening and understand.

@CheekySnake DH and I don’t have social media, I’m just forward thinking for when the DC are on it. I can only hope they choose not to use it like your DC.
I understand what you are saying about the resentment, it must have been hard for you living through that with your parents. With my DC for now they are shielded from the toxic family. But I feel the strain of it, like I’m holding back the tide, and that comes out of me in the form of my anxiety, which of course is bound to effect them to an extent.

@binkie163 I know logically you are right. School isn’t even really that long in the grand scheme of things. I’m just consumed with fear that it would all go wrong and the DC will hate me. I am exhausted, you are right. I’m just so sad that this is my life. The damage my family have done is far-reaching, and even though I’ve tried to protect my DC from them and kept them out of our lives as much as possible, it’s impacting them anyway from the damage to me.

@Twatalert Yes, I do feel suicidal a lot (like today with the traffic). Sometimes it feels like the only way to make it all stop. I even think sometimes if I wasn’t here then maybe the extended family would leave the DC alone in the future, maybe they wouldn’t chase them if they knew I wasn’t there in the background being hurt by it all by proxy. A stupid thought process I know, but sometimes it feels logical.

Perhaps I do need the cliche of New year, new start.

@SamAndAnnie The problem with my extended family is they are seeped into every part of my life. They know people in almost every aspect of my life (which isn’t hard because my fear has made my world very small), but they even have connections to basic things like the schools, quite a few places that hold my address, and they are manipulative enough to get any new address out of these places one way or another.

Its all just so bloody hard and so suffocating.

Thank you for this. I think I needed to hear this. I’m sorry you went through that, it must have been so hard for you.
Im not 24/7 like this, but I understand it probably is confusing for them. I’m pretty good at masking it on the surface, because I grew up masking my feelings so I’m a bit of an expert at it. But they are bound to see micro gestures and far away eyes I suppose.

Be kind to yourself you are doing brilliantly. And you have you wonderful children too.

If the environment around you is making you that unhappy and that poorly you need to move. I moved myself and my son many years ago to a different part of the country, to a town I had never even heard of. I visited it once to find a house to rent then I moved here.

I just needed to get far away from the family. I still have a lot of big issues because of them all for many other reasons but my son had a happier time as a teenager as I was happier.

you don’t necessarily need to move that far it depends what your family and their extensions (friends etc) are like. In my case just moving 30miles to a new town would probably have worked rather than hundreds of miles.

Yes my mum had no shame phoning friends, friends of friends, business contacts and anyone she could think of to get contact information on me. I was brutally honest with everyone that my mother was a dangerous narcissist and anyone passing on info would be immediately blocked. Schools, Drs etc are bound by gdpr and make sure they know your family are not to be told anything. If you don't trust them don't give them the info.

You and your DH decide not the children. They do what you both think I’d best.

you need to get through this and stay alive so you come first. I’m not trying to be harsh I’ve been in the same situation. I told my son we were moving that was that. And yes it was hard for both of us but I needed to be able to stay alive to be his mum.

Thanks for the reply.
How old was your son when you moved? Were things ok from the start when you moved?

The lengths these narcissists go to is ridiculous, isn’t it?
It makes you wonder what goes through their heads as they start dialing the numbers. The sheer level of entitlement. But, yes, this is what mine are like too.