October 2024 - But we took you to Stately Homes!

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007.

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;
'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.
NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.
'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:
"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.
Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.
Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:
"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.
YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".
"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.
YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".
"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."
"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"
"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."
"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites
Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat for details.

Some books:
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa
This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:
"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"
I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:
"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".
Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwaite
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

I’m so sorry all of you are experiencing such awful times. It sounds so difficult. I wish I could make it all better.

I agree with the poster who said they didn’t trust their mum. I hate to admit it but I’m starting to think the same. I don’t feel emotionally safe with her - I feel like she would say one thing to my face and another to someone else. Tell people my secrets and throw me under the bus saying “oh I didn’t realise that would happen” or “I didn’t know it was a secret” all the while smirking away.

I have also considered a radical move, it can feel so suffocating. I thought about moving to Shetland, or somewhere else in Scotland. But then thought of my little daughter - she would have to move away for university and career opportunities, and if she wants me, I would want to be close by to support her in adulthood. So that might not be the best idea of location! I also have a dad who is lovely and a sister of course who is great, and the new baby she has. I don’t want to be far from them. But the idea of SPACE and FREEDOM is joyous!

wvcs3 would it help to break the address chain if you rented somewhere for 6mths in/close to the new location before buying? It makes the sale/purchase easier too because you'd not be a chain-link yourself. This isn't the same thing as you at all, but I've known a few lifelong renters who regularly run up debts then do a moonlight flit. Nobody ever catches up with them unless they apply for credit and give their old address and then it's companies they owe, not individual people, finding them. It's 5yr address history for credit. So if you could get yourself into a situation where you needn't apply for any for that timescale, you could literally give your old address to nobody. You can put utilities bills under whatever name you like, just make something up. As long as you pay it nobody cares. IDK if you need ID for council tax. You could always change your name while in rented accommodation. So your new house purchase/bills/bank account etc is in a new name. Your old address would be the rental and you don't need to tell the rental people where you've moved to even though they'll ask, it's none of their business.

Todaypicard a move doesn't have to be forever. When DC goes off to university you could move there too. Or a town nearby, if you don't want to cramp their style 😁

I wonder if part of our problem sometimes is with and see it for what it really is. Because this situation is just so weird and unnatural and never really in focus. We have to look at it in focus and act accordingly, even if that means we have to move. I think we downsize the level of harm and the seriousness of it, it’s our family after all. I’m soft so the thought of people hating me because I’ve gone no contact scares me, I get scared of my own feelings. I suppose that is what these people rely on, they see feelings as weakness. @VWSC3 I didn’t sleep well last night because I was thinking about your state of mind when you wanted to walk in the traffic. I’ve been there in my marriage. I wished and wished that one day I’d just die in my sleep and it would all be over. I scared myself. In the end I left my own house (that I owned because he wouldn’t go) with my 2 year old and we shared a bed in a room for a year. They want us to believe that we are trapped, but what they have done is to build a prison in our mind. Please think really hard about moving because once you push through the fear life will be better.

@SamAndAnnie Thank you for the suggestions. Renting would definitely make sense as if they learn the new address at least we could move on.
The problem I have is I live in close proximity to them and they often drive repeatedly up and down our road, so they will likely follow us anyway. They have followed us in their cars a lot over the years with a massive smirk on their face.

@Happyfarm Im sorry you didn’t sleep well, and sorry if it triggered you. It’s awful that these toxic people leave behind these strong negative emotions that we can all relate to. They drive us to awful feelings. It makes it more painful when they are then sided with too. I’m sorry you went through such difficult things with your husband, but glad you found a way out of the situation.

Have we a new thread? I have been keeping busy and away from the internet for a bit to make sure I dont encounter family.

@VWSC3 my ex bought a house 5 doors down from mine after years in court getting him out of mine, just to put pressure on me emotionally. So I moved again and he got bored. Perhaps they will get bored the more effort they have to put in. If you moved hours away they’d surely get bored? Mine found someone else to keep him occupied.

That was really stalkerish of him. That would be my worst nightmare if my family did that. They like the control, don’t they? I’m glad your ex eventually stopped.

The problem I have is I live in close proximity to them and they often drive repeatedly up and down our road, so they will likely follow us anyway. They have followed us in their cars a lot over the years with a massive smirk on their face.

Which is why you need to go far away! 🏘️🏞️⬅️🏃 wvcs3 ! You can't make friends in this town but you can in another county 100 miles away where nobody knows you or your extended family. If your DC find out that moving isn't the end of the world and it's possible to make new friends, which they will if you do it, it boosts their confidence to travel, get jobs wherever the jobs are, instead of feeling they need to stay where they currently are because it's familiar. And it gets them away from your extended family.

@SamAndAnnie I wish it wasn’t the only solution, but I know deep down that you are right.
I just wish they would choose to leave us alone, or people didn’t go along with them and enable their behaviour. But that’s never, ever going to happen.

wvcs3 💐 it's hard to face, but necessary

I first moved to a different part of the country when he was in his first year at school then had to go back home.

So he then did an infants and primary school back home and then I had to move him to a new primary school at age 8 until he left due to a problem with the school. Then he started secondary school and was settling in.

Then I moved him again and that was permanently hundreds of miles when he was in his first year at secondary.

It was a struggle as we were literally completely alone hundreds of miles from anyone or anything we knew. But he’s OK classes this as his home town and is in his 30s now.

I’m still struggling tbh but that’s because of my family crap from my childhood. That’s a whole other story but at least I’m alive. I’m going through a bad patch with everything currently so sorry I sound a bit low.

you will have your DH to support you so you are a family unit so it will be much easier than my situation was.

Whoever recommended Patrick Teahan - thank you. Started watching his videos yesterday and found my exact family dynamic (the violent abuser plus the 'safe' parent who enables them/is codependent).

He specifically said that when people come into therapy for help after this sort of childhood, it's always for problems with the 'safe' parent (because the violent parent is straight forward. It's easy to see the dysfunction there). First time I've ever heard that voiced.

@CheekySnake yes it was hard for me to see my dad as he really was. He was a weak enabler to my mother. Once you see how manipulative the tears, hand ringing and empty promises are, it hurts.

Is the safe person just trapped in the abuse cycle also? They want you to accept it as they have thinking that we are all the problems? It all gets normalised? My dad was lovely and I don’t know why he stayed with my mum, he was utterly miserable. He died of cancer and I don’t think he was too bothered because it meant he could stop being so miserable.

Thank you for explaining. It’s reassuring for me that you moved your child in high school, as it’s my high school child I’m worried about the most, and reassuring that he thinks of the new place as his hometown. Did your son reconnect to any of the family you moved away from when he grew up?

In sorry you are feeling low at the moment and are experiencing a bad patch. Di you want to talk about it?

I see the safe person as a victim and abuser. Enabling abuse is also abuse. My father was the enabler. Sure, he also got abused by my mother, but he allowed her to abuse me and he abused me also by adopting many of her tactics. I feel majorly betrayed by him.

I abused people myself as a young adult because that's all I learnt and thought it was normal. In my opinion, uncovering emotional abuse is very hard and whilst I did not repeat some of my parents behaviours because I knew they were wrong I didn't know HOW MANY were wrong. This shit creeps into everything you do and you have to do a complete 180 from what you learnt to undo it all.

I think my mother was in a cycle where she told herself that everything would be fine if she just found the magical fix for my father's behaviour. There's an element of choice in that, though, isn't there? One thing I really struggle with is how long she let it go on for. I remember her saying once 'i got us out of there' and I could see her mentally patting herself on the back. Inside I was thinking wtf. I was in my late teens. That's how long she allowed me to live like that for. And she didn't get us out of there, she had a better offer on the table. She left for herself and herself only.

I was reading a bit about codependency last night and came across the idea that narc and codependent have a lot in common and are similar in a lot of ways and this morning it struck me that they are two sides of the same coin, aren't they? I know that my mother is capable of being really nasty when she wants/doesn't get her own way. And there's a weird thing in there about her being willing to offer 'help' (so she thinks of herself as generous) but she has to dictate what that help looks like, so it's about her needs and not yours. She gets very pissy and upset if you reject that help and there's no point asking for the type of help you actually want/need because you won't get it.

I’m unsure if there is an element of choice. I was in an abusive relationship and I left when my daughter was young. I simply couldn’t cope anymore as it was making me really ill. I suppose I chose to leave and suffer all that came with leaving because I wanted better for our daughter and for myself. Maybe I was stronger than I give myself credit for, maybe he was just so obviously horrible. I think I knew just enough that this was wrong and I do account some of that down to the love I got from my dad.

By element of choice I mean she chose to believe that things would be fixed if she just did whatever thing it was he said would fix it at that time. It's about her choosing to believe that it was her job to be the fixer (which is a sign of being codependent). She could have said no, it's not my job to 'fix' his life.

The thing is that we are all responsible for our own behaviour, no matter if it is subconscious or we 'didn't know better'. When I realised that I found it harsh, because it means that they mess you up and once you turn 18 your are suddenly resposible for fixing all the damage that was done to you. But I prefer it that way to people living in denial not taking accountability.

Fwiw my father was obviously horrible. It wasn't covert in any way. So there are incidents I remember from childhood that I look back at now and can't believe that they weren't enough to have her end the relationship.

Plus obviously she did have a choice, because she did end it. But not to stop him abusing me.

I’m unsure about this also. Over 15 years I was trained and conditioned to put his needs first. It literally re-wired my brain. My father died at the end of the relationship with my ex and I think only this massive bolt of emotion made enough impact for me to see through my own eyes. I was lost. Choice is a loaded word I feel. I think sometimes it’s way more complex then simple choice.

I can not stop my ex abusing my daughter. 3 years in court and £16,000 and he still can do what he wants emotionally. I hope one day she will see I’ve done my best and not think I let him do it. It’s always this horrible thought in the back of my mind that why did I have a child, why did I let this happen.

I have now started a new December 2024 thread so please use that one now.

It's not a simple choice or an easy one, but it is a choice. She didn't have to stay with him. There were multiple opportunities to leave. She allowed herself to be talked round each time with false promises, despite those promises never having been kept before. She ignored my distress (cutting, starving myself, pulling my own hair out, selective mutism, acute social anxiety, begging her to leave, him starting fights in front of me on purpose, breaking things in front of me, stealing from me. I could go on but I'd be here all day).

She didn't want to break the codependency to protect me. I have to live with that.