October 2024 - But we took you to Stately Homes!

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007.

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;
'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.
NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.
'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:
"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.
Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.
Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:
"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.
YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".
"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.
YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".
"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."
"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"
"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."
"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites
Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat for details.

Some books:
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa
This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:
"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"
I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:
"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".
Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwaite
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

My MIL is like this about gifts also. We had a
pack of wetwipes for our daughters first birthday. She was born after a miscarriage also and an extremely difficult labour with major blood loss. Everyone in my family spoilt her but her face hit the floor when she came over and saw. She was rude and said it was all pointless then sat in silence. As if her opinion is that important!

My mum has an obsession with “being needed”. She is certainly emotionally immature, has no empathy and “no chat”. She never asks me how I am or questions about my life. If I communicate I’m feeling down/unwell etc she just doesn’t reply.
since my parents divorced when I was 10, she seems to have jumped from one extreme idea to another (and they are becoming increasingly more bizarre) so initially she cared for my dying GM at home, then we were moving to Ireland with a man she met online, then to Spain with a married friend who “would leave his wife” - none of this ever happened. Then when I went to uni she started fostering children, then found a disabled man to care for who she married, then moved rurally when she’s the only driver with teenage foster children (and then complained she had no community!!), then cared for a very unwell aunt, then found a literal stranger to become a paid carer for, then thought she would adopt a baby “because I want to do something for me!”, then when I asked if she might do some childcare for my baby she said she was looking after the neighbours baby so couldn’t do it?! it’s just utterly bizarre to think you’re the right home for an adopted baby with 2 teenage foster boys who have severe behaviour problems, and a disabled husband, whilst caring for a stranger 3 days a week who lives an hour away and a neighbours baby? She demanded I give her my pram (that she gifted me) for “her baby”. Needless to say, she either didn’t actually apply, or was rejected!

but when I need help? Sorry too busy, or no reply/ignoring it. When my sister needs help with her new baby? Sorry DH doesn’t like me going out as he gets lonely, I’m going away, or “I’m free all day” but actually when pushed its “I’m free 11.10-11.30am only”

it’s like she is missing something? Trying to fill a void? I thought it was that she didn’t know herself or love herself? But maybe she’s just a narcissist?!

@Todaypicard how incredibly bizarre. Have you ever pulled her up on her behaviour? Asked why she's compelled to take on care for SO many people, with a clear exception of her own children? What does your sister think about it? Has she ever been caring towards you?

My mother has a bit of this "always needing to be needed" going on too, but to a much less extreme level. She took a cousin in when he went back to uni in the same city as her, she took over care of an older friend who had no family and was becoming senile, she babies all of her own, now elderly siblings. I've an older sibling who became severely mentally unwell as a teenager and I actually think my mother's enmeshed, overbearing and totally controlling / almost co-dependent caring of her has inhibited her recovery. She's the same with my younger / GC sibling, who is in her 30s and still gets her laundry done and meals cooked for her. I on the other hand, am the designated "easy" one who she's not lifted a finger for in decades. I'm partly to blame for that, I couldn't stand her all-consuming, domineering, no-boundaries, my way or the highway style of parenting as a kid and got out of dodge as soon as possible. I think my mother has two gears for relating to others - completely enmeshing and trying to control, or completely ignoring / scapegoating.

Perhaps they do this, caring for others because they can get the attention they require without the emotional connection that they can’t do. We would be able to see right through them whereas strangers don’t have this invisible connection so the mask is kept on. It’s like avoidant connection.

I have no idea. It is so very odd. I have pulled her up on it purely asking about facts “how will you manage if the baby doesn’t travel?”, “how will you care for X and Y if the baby is awake every hour and can’t be out down”, “what do you know about attachment disorder”, “have you had training in drug addicted babies etc”, “you said you were exhausted/in pain having 4 year old (very easy!) GD, how will you manage with a newborn”. And she literally doesn’t answer! Ignores or says she’s planning a holiday/visiting the neighbour/has a dr appt.

sister is younger and has been quiet on the issue until recently - like the scales fell away moment! She is just really sad about it all. DM was invited to visit their new baby on the day they came home and she said no because her husband has a day out planned?! This was after literally saying “if you don’t let me see he baby once a week minimum I’m moving to Scotland!”. My sister laughed in her face and said errr okay bye then! There seems no regular reasoning to her behaviour.

min the family we say she’s all about “money control and power” - if she can’t get one of those from an interaction, she’s not interested.

she said to my daughter a few weeks back “who’s your favourite grandparent” - and I said “DD don’t answer that, it’s an unkind and unfair question” and I took her out the room.

Yes, it can be a form of supply for or narc or have a number of other reasons. I'm sure my mother is a covert narcissist. She painted me and my dad as incompetent in life and therefore needed lots of her unwanted help. Note that this 'help' was always intrusive and undermining. She would make it a point to help if I didn't want it and there would be no way she'd stop. I wouldn't receive help for anything I asked help with or I would have to beg, remind etc.

@Todaypicard how wonderful you stood up for your daughter and told her she doesn't need to answer. I know it should be normal, but I got so neglected and abused that I find it wonderful.

Honestly I think she’s deeply unhappy with her life. I never see any affection from her to her husband. She’s always shouting and moaning. She’s so hard done by etc. she “can’t get over” that I “left her” to go to university. Despite me telling her that me going to university was an entirely normal thing… it’s like empty nest syndrome on steroids!

Im now am extremely successful and have a senior medical director type job (I’m a highly skilled clinician and manage a team of 70, with a multimillion turnover) and she still thinks I know absolutely nothing about my area if it ever comes up.

I can’t remember the last time she looked happy or smiled.
she won’t accept a cup of tea at my house despite loving tea, she won’t stay for dinner, often doesn’t even take her coat off or sit down. Then if I mention it she says “I can’t do anything right, I’m always on eggshells with you!”
I have a perfectly nice clean and welcoming house (and I’m not just saying that!)

Probably because she can’t bare to see you happy without her involvement. It goes against there very moral coding, they decide who’s happy, they control it all. They don’t see us or live in reality, they see what they want to see.

@Todaypicard oh god, sounds so familiar. I lived in three countries, got a high paying job, own property, built investments, finally healing from childhood trauma which has been a total transformation on a personal level and I'm so glad and proud I have been able to do that - nothing I ever grew up with but learnt and worked for myself.

I freed myself from lifelong depression and panic attacks. It's totally amazing.

But a couple of years ago I couldn't warm up food for my niece in the microwave without my mother's supervision.

@todaypicard it sounds like a control thing. She needs to be the nucleus, the centre of or biggest influencer of everything. She can't sit in your house and drink your tea and have dinner that she didn't cook, she'll be witness to your success / happiness that she has had no control or influence over.

I see so many women around here with huge degree of professional success despite toxic mothers like this and it makes me really curious. What has motivated you? Who was your support network? I'm another one that lived in multiple countries, have had two successful careers to date, I've had articles written about me, presented at large conferences etc. But it's my medical professional younger sister that my mother talks about and obsesses over. The same one she funded for 2x expensive degrees and who will give my mother unfettered access to her private life. The controllable one. I had to graft and fund myself, without any support or interest from my mother, i've suffered multiple burnouts and health issues and now have to sit with a therapist to figure out how to recover from the latest burnout and not be motivated by a will to find my worth through my work, the worth that my mother should've instilled in me in the first place.

@wonderingwonderingwondering there was no support network for me. I knew at 14 I wanted to get out of this village and earn good money. As a child I used to worry about my parents finances and I didn't want to continue that for myself. Nobody went to uni or knew what it entails, so I just read career advice and followed it (languages, time abroad etc).

I feel really sad for that 18yo going to uni without anyone in the family having a clue or showing interest. I always just assumed it was normal to figure everything out yourself and not having emotional support.

Then after uni I went straight abroad again for my first job. In hindsight I just wanted to break out from the prison I found myself in growing up. I equalled all this with freedom etc which of course it was not, because I kept carrying my childhood trauma and cptsd as I know now.

@wonderingwonderingwondering and yes, it took a couple of burnouts for me too. Given that I had been depressed since childhood, lived with insomnia and daily panic attacks I did pretty well and I don't quite know how this was possible given I struggled to function for two decades.

I was totally self motivated. It all came from me. I applied secretly to the local private school at 16 begging to be allowed to sit exams for the scholarship as I knew 1) we couldn’t afford it and 2)my parents wouldn’t want me to go. I only told my parents when I was accepted. Thinking back now? I was eager to escape that life and make a new one.

I drive myself, harder and harder every day. I am both ferociously independent and also utterly desperate for someone to look after me and let me rest.

I have had one major burnout, 18 months into my first job out if university. I weighed just under 50kg, wasn’t eating or sleeping - was working as many hours as I could to get on in let career. I cried every day and begged to come home, but mum said no - my choice or career so I have to live with it. I tightening up, moved to a different job (which was also a dud) and had another mini burn out, but eventually after about 12 years got to the right place!

Many of us were born to take leadership roles I think? We learned we could only rely on ourselves

My health is definitely suffering now, I’m now overweight and I have various aches/pains and deficiencies. Someone earlier said “the body keeps score” and I sure am paying for it now

@todaypicard hyperindependence. Relying on yourself and yourself only as a trauma response. You never got to be a child, there was noone safe, noone protecting or parenting you. I'm so sorry. But also wanted to say congratulations on the incredible resilience and success.

I'm familiar with the double bind of hyperindependence. My parents took credit for my independence at my own wedding. She never asked for anything, out there in the world doing big things after uni. I never asked because I never got. I never knew asking was an option.
My mother scapegoated her inconvenient kids. I never mattered if it didnt look perfect. I wasn't the squeaky wheel kid and my parents were emotionally stunted, the best they could do was throw money at me while emotionally abusing and neglecting me. But the world can't tell me enough how impressive all of the career and travel stuff is. I've prided myself on trusting noone professionally, doing everything myself, pushing and pushing and giving the performance of a lifetime and I've been rewarded with money and promotions and auto immune disease.

I found someone to take care of me. I married him. I woke up and quit the job and discovered a lot of health conditions, hopefully early enough to be able to improve things longer term. My parents of course nowhere to be seen in the struggles of course.

You deserve to rest. You deserve the success, every inch of it, but if you don't choose rest, it chooses you when you least need it to.

You guys sound like a real inspiration. I was totally the opposite I couldn’t function very well on my own and subconsciously sought someone out to take care of me. I was controlled so much by my mum that independence was way too scary. Obviously that led me to horrible co-dependant relationships. I did leave at 18 and do a degree and a masters but failed to do much with them due to the anxiety of life and terrible relationships. I am a little ashamed I wasted such potential really but I was a little messed up when I was younger.

My life has been a mixed bag, really, I don't have what I would call an impressive career. I had my children very young and never went back into what I'd call a proper job. I'm self-employed in a creative industry. Have had some successes but also a lot of crashing failures. I feel that I've not lived up to my potential at all, though I tell myself there's still time. I've always been flaky and did try to have a normal job but couldn't cope. About ten years ago I discovered that I've actually got a chronic illness and I've probably had it most of my life (undiagnosed). I've had quite a few operations now and I take multiple medications. I also struggle with anxiety and tend to get very stressed very easily. In hindsight, looking back at my life, it's so obvious that I was an extremely anxious child. Had constant upset stomachs and rashes which couldn't be explained. I was into mentally unwell territory in my teens (issues with food, self harming, selective mutism, just utter, utter misery. I regularly went to bed hoping I wouldn't wake up in the morning). I look at my mother now and just think how could you not notice, you self involved, selfish cow. How could she sit back as that childhood (father was monstrous - drug use, violence, coercive control, financial abuse, vicious bullying) was inflicted on me and not think right, this is harming my kids, and have that be the line in the sand. She ended the marriage for the simple reason that she met someone else. Had she not, I'm convinced she'd still be in it. I've never quite forgiven her for that and I'm not sure I ever will because obviously, she could leave and she chose not to. But then I have to remind myself that in her head I existed to fix things and to do things she found emotionally too challenging and I was never allowed to show how I really felt about the situation. I was invisible and not that important. Sibling is also a mess, though she's still got an enmeshed, unhealthy relationship with them.

I was thinking on it last night and came to the conclusion that the reason I can't bear to be around my mother is that I just don't trust her. At all. Not with me, not with my kids.

It simply isn’t bloody fair that this has happened simply due to who we are born to. I find this unfairness really hard to contain but I know it’s not innocent people’s fault. There is so much unfairness in the world I sometimes get consumed. One look at my little 2 year old often brings me back to reality, they are all that matters and I contain my inner war for them.

@CheekySnake this sounds very hard and I think after so much childhood trauma it's unusual having it all in the end, i.e. your health, career and family. I 'only' have the career. Mentally I am more healthy, but physically I will never be due to the effects of an eating disorder. I didn't have children as I couldn't maintain relationships and I think only now in my early 40s after much work on myself could I maybe be an adequate mother. I was a highly dysfunctional human being in my 20s and much into my 30s. I would have damaged a child. Besides, my focus was on holding down a job and I couldn't have done both - a job and a child. Only now do I start to understand how it might be possible to have both. Now that I'm sleeping, not depressed, no frequent panic attacks.

I think we all did what we could with so many years focused on survival.

I am struggling so much at the moment. I feel trapped and like I’ve lost the game of life but am being forced to carry on playing anyway.

Unlike a few of you who have mentioned your successes recently, my life is a catastrophic failure. I trained in a particular career, but my self-worth and self-esteem meant I couldn’t get through interviews. I couldn’t ‘sell’ myself because I had no belief in myself. I automatically felt like the worst person in the room. I’ve never been able to view myself through any other lens than my parents lens.

I attract people who have a bullying/abusive edge, people who take advantage and backstabbers like a magnet. So most of my life has been dominated by various forms of abuse. I’ve had very few ‘good’ people in my life.

My health isn’t good like a few of us on here. The usual childhood abuse illnesses - a variety of quite bad autoimmune illnesses, depression anxiety, PTSD. All of which the majority of my toxic family (including the flying monkey extended family) naturally believe are in my head, as they don’t do compassion, empathy or kindness, not for me anyway. And of course they have much more fun gaslighting me about my own health, and they all know better than my consultants apparently 🙄.

I felt overwhelmed today. Then I went to my children’s school and once again a family members friends were there giving me side eye looks and smirks and talking behind their hands looking directly at me like they were 13 years old.

Walking home I felt an overwhelming feeling of being trapped, that I can’t escape. That this is my life and there is nothing I can do about it. I’m stuck on a conveyor belt that I don’t want to be on, and the narcissistic/toxic family members will alway ‘win’ and come out on top. They have destroyed my reputation with their smear campaign, isolated me from people I cared about, spread lies about me that people believe. There is nothing I can do and I don’t want to do this anymore. As I was walking along the pavement and seeing the oncoming traffic it was taking all of my willpower not to just step out into it.

Christmas is upon us and we will at some point get even more shit from someone within the family, as every Christmas they behave like a tag team, it’s always someone’s turn to come and cause trouble. So my anxiety is through the roof.

Im done, I can’t do this anymore. I live in more a less a permanent state of keeping a lid on tears or anger or numbness. I liken how I live to Elsa at the start of Frozen with her ‘conceal, don’t feel, don’t let it show’ mantra, except instead of wearing gloves I’m wearing a fake smile to cover it.

I don’t know what to do. I feel completely and utterly overwhelmed.

Im sorry for the essay.