October 2024 - But we took you to Stately Homes!

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007.

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;
'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.
NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.
'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:
"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.
Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.
Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:
"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.
YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".
"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.
YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".
"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."
"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"
"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."
"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites
Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat for details.

Some books:
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa
This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:
"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"
I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:
"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".
Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwaite
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

@AttilaTheMeerkat thank you. I have been running through (overthinking) all possible Christmas Day scenarios that she turns up/doesn’t turn up, and I suppose I felt I should give her something if she turns up- not that she would be let in- and that morphs into can I send cards to other family but not her, and then if I send a card should send a gift. I don’t know. I know I’m contradicting myself. My head is a mess on this except I know I’m better when she’s not around,

@Todaypicard it seems your mother isn't acknowledging the inappropriate behaviour of her husband towards you. She isn't able to navigate the situation in a healthy way for reasons that shouldn't be your concern. You are fully in your right to no longer send your daughter to their house and I think you should trust your gut instinct on that, but you would have to accept your mother's decision to not agree to do childcare at yours only. That's her boundary, however hurtful or inappropriate for you, but that's her decision and you need to process your feelings around that.

Not succumbing to her pressure would mean to find alternative childcare, is that possible?

Spot on. she is trying to blackmail you. into backing down. Stay strong.
I would calmly reply that if that is her decision you will accept it and look for alternative care. And I would put money in her backing down pretty quickly too.

Anyone else struggling with pressure being put on them to 'sort things out' - i.e give in and re traumatise yourself - by visiting the toxic parent you're NC with for Christmas?
I have a tricky one where I'm NC with one parent but not the other. Have been NC for about 15 months and LC for a few years. The 'safer' parent
turned up yesterday crying and asking how 'we can sort this out'. I explained that it was not on me to sort anything out.
I will hold firm on this but of course I feel guilty, don't I...

Yes I can absolutely organise alternative childcare. I just think it’s her and my daughter that will miss out.
I agree with you though and really thank you for them.

How should I repond to gaslighting? Not hugely familiar with the term or how to reply to her really. I thought about something just neutral - so if she says well I won’t have her at your house so looks like I won’t see her etc, I could reply - I respect your decision, thank you for letting me know, we will organise alternative?
or do I need to acknowledge she’s “hurting” and specify that it wasn’t my intention to hurt her, and if she wants to reconsider at any time, she is very welcome to come and see her any time?

@Todaypicard then so be it. With a bit of distance the 'loss' for your daughter may not seem as significant. She will spend less time with a grandmother who enables her husband and guilttrips her own daughter. It's best to put a stop to this dynamic. You may begin to feel better for it.

I would respond with the former. Only you know if you are able to have a conversation with your mother about things each of you found hurtful. I guess not.

You cannot reason with gaslighting. It's best to recognise it for what it is, put it aside and enforce firm boundaries instead. I would not already give in with 'you can change your mind and see her any time if you wish'. I know you want your daughter to have her granny and it's a process to accept that maybe it won't be possible the way you imagine. See first how well your mother can respond to the boundary and let it be her initiative to change her mind.

@Persista i always want to say to this 'suggest they go to therapy as they are clearly distressed and not coping on their own' but I'm never sure it's appropriate.

Growing up did you ever try to get your parents to sort something out and they shut you down? I think of all the equivalent situations when I grew up and then I just get angry and it's easier to detach.

@Persista the safer parent is not safer, they are an enabler and very manipulative turning on the tears to force/guilt you into accepting their shit. They don't want to sort anything out they want you to suck it up.
My mum was appalling and I always felt sorry for my poor old dad, he used to turn on the tears to get me to accept mum's behaviour 'oh it's just your mum you know how difficult she is etc' then I realised he was just as manipulative, glossing over my feelings as long as mum got her way=dad getting a quiet life. Co dependent behaviour, both are damaging to you. They are playing good cop bad cop!

Not quite the same, but similar, with my DH. I was NC with my father for decades (DH never met him). Parents divorced. Was still quite enmeshed with my mother when DH and I met but that got less and less as I got older and realised just how awful she is. We've been LC for a long time because she moved abroad. She moved back recently and is pushing to increase contact. It's taken a while but I am at the point now where I'm feeling this is not good for me, I don't want increased contact, or any contact really. When I say to DH that I don't want contact, he says things like 'but what if she needs care when she's older' 'next time she wants to visit we'll do this instead' 'we'll visit her' and I can't seem to get him to understand just how much distress she causes me, that I don't trust her with my kids, that she's only been well behaved the last couple of times we've seen her because she's not sure of her footing yet and so she's playing nice but it's not real and won't last.

Looking back at my childhood now, all I can think is that my mother was ok to have me grow up in that house with a father who was monstrous. It's hard to forgive that. I used to feel sorry for her t
oo, in fact that was my focus as a child, trying to protect her/not cause trouble/ manage his fury. Then as an adult w my own kids I can see how messed up that was. I also began to realise that actually, if he'd been normal, she'd have been the awful parent. Less awful than him was a low bar to say the least

Always. I have literally spelt out time and again to them what I need from them as parents. It was never heard or acknowledged. Therapist Patrick Teahan has a great video where he describes different styles of toxic parenting, and the one that stayed with me was the 'I only work here' parent. I.e, never taking any responsibility for sorting anything out for me - even really bloody serious stuff.
I try to hold on to that....
Thanks for your response x

@CheekySnake Yes that's just it isn't it. She sat back and watched it go on. I suppose I get pulled into that place of feeling sorry for her because she is no doubt a victim of my father too, but she was an adult and I was a child. She just wants me to play nice so that they can create an impression of a normal family for when people ask what they're doing for Christmas etc. So I have to sacrifice my inner peace for that? I don't think so...
My dad will punish my mum though, which makes me feel shit.

@binkie163 You are quite right. That's exactly what my mum says. Oh you know what your dad's like. And yesterday it was, but your dad really misses talking politics with you. Oh right, so all the horrible, cruel, abusive, negligent stuff he's done has to be put to one side so he can practice his arguments on someone?!
We don't even agree politically so what on earth would be the point!
Acknowledging the damage done by the 'safer' parent is really tough isn't it. Because then you have to acknowledge that you don't really have any parents....

@Persista it's horrible and I know the urge to protect them can be overwhelming. But it's setting yourself on fire to keep other people warm. That's the reality.

Great saying. Putting that on my fridge immediately!
I just don't want to see him. I spend Christmas with my two wonderful grown-up children, my amazing dog and my lovely neighbours. It's our 3rd Christmas doing that and we love it just the way it is. We've created our own thing that works for us, and I'm going to guard it with all I have.

Christmas is hard with families like this, isn't it?

There's a lot of happy memories, even my bloody phone is reminding me of that. Memories from Christmas 5 years ago etc. I was so enmeshed, I never moved out of that "good / easy / we don't worry about her" child in this family. In reality it was neglect, it was stifling my personality, it was feeling like I never mattered, never had a voice or a place in this family. Years and years of travelling long distances, flying back from abroad to sit with them and feel this way.

Then I got diagnosed with a bunch of stuff and underlying autoimmune disease this year, after my own wedding which I spent again feeling this way. This stuff takes a huge physical toll. The body really does keep the score. Getting healthier and using my voice and creating boundaries, has placed me in a scapegoat role now, and Christmas is bringing up a lot of grief and pain. I don't know if there'll ever be another Christmas with them again. They need their easy child to get along, and I'm too far gone to do the performance anymore. I don't relate to the role, and as a consequence can't relate to any of my family members. We are all strangers now.

The hardest thing is they're not bad people. They're just not the family I needed or deserved. They didn't know any better.

@Persista yes it was really hard for me when the scales fell from my eyes and I realised my dad was equally responsible for my shit childhood. He did nothing to protect me from my mother's rages, he was mostly absent. He had a good job but never expected my lazy mum to cook, clean, laundry etc but did expect me to do it, from a very young age. I find it rich that shit parents expect and feel entitled to demand time, care and attention from the very children they neglected and didn't care for when we were vulnerable.
Edited to say: that your mum wants to throw you to the wolves, she wants you as his whipping boy, she is a selfish and happy for you to be punished.

@binkie163 yeah I'm on that journey currently I think. It was always simpler to blame everything on my narc father and take the crumbs from my mum. But she never stood up for me against him, ever.
I have listed all the appalling things he has done - some of them are seriously bad, like ignoring CSA and grooming - but have never received an apology and am expected to rock up at Christmas to hear his views on world affairs!
I hope you have a peaceful festive season x

@Persista it's bizarre how they always expect from us the very thing they never provided themselves.

@Persista I am NC so Christmas is relaxing in France with husband, dogs, log fire and good food. In fact it was Xmas few years ago that was the last straw, my mother throwing tantrums because she hated my having happy Xmas and she was excluded. I hadn't been home for Xmas since 1995. I had been LC for years but was ok with phone contact but of course that escalated to ridiculous levels of drama. After an extinction event argument I hung up the phone and never spoke to her again. Tbh they are fucking delusional thinking we have forgotten all the shit, I just always kept a tight lid on it.

@binkie163 that's how I feel - I don't understand how my mother can behave the way she has and expect anything from me. And yet here we are.

@CheekySnake they are fucking batshit nutters xx

Yeah Christmas was always a flashpoint at best so why would I risk it at this time of year of all times. I spent my daughter's first Christmas crying because my dad had a tantrum at all the gifts she'd received. Apparently it was too many. She was a first child (and grandchild!) following a loss, so yeah, I was pretty excited.
He's just a bullying pig who wants everyone to be miserable.
I hope you have a really lovely time x