October 2024 - But we took you to Stately Homes!

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007.

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;
'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.
NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.
'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:
"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.
Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.
Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:
"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.
YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".
"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.
YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".
"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."
"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"
"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."
"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites
Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat for details.

Some books:
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa
This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:
"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"
I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:
"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".
Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwaite
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

@Happyfarm giving me food I like was about the only thing my mother would do for me. But it also meant she'd restrict it, so she messed me up nicely in the food department.

@Twatalert I feel the same about my mother. I am 95% of the way to NC. In an ideal world, I think it is what I would like (given the reality of the mother that I have). I'm not quite able to do it because I genuinely don't want to cause her upset and I know that it would. She wouldn't accept it or understand why I was doing it. Our relationship has dwindled to something infrequent and shallow which is about all I can cope with. It's been like this for years. With her, it's not just the childhood shit, although there's plenty of that. It's how she's behaved towards me in adult life. She continued with this expectation that my job was to centre her and if she wanted/needed something doing, I was supposed to do it. I was still in people pleasing mode through my early twenties but didn't realise it and I can remember watching in utter dismay as she made our wedding all about her and had repeated tantrums to get her own way over things. I was so crushed by the time it was over, and had cut back on the things I wanted in order to pay for things she wanted. I naively thought that your wedding is the time when your parents spoil you, right? That was the moment when she would step up, make sure I had a dress I really loved etc. No. It was just six months of childish whining. That was when I began to understand what was going on. Got worse with child no. 1 who she was really possessive and weird over, but she really killed it with child no. 2, who she ignored completely, and by that time was also drinking very heavily, and she's foul when she's drunk. The relationship would have died completely at that point if she hadn't moved abroad and the only reason it didn't is because I barely saw them and didn't speak to her. What I'm struggling with now is that she's trying to push her way back into my life (she's been widowed) and she seems completely unable to grasp that she's not welcome. She seems to have no idea that she's behaved horribly and doesn't seem able to grasp that she's got no right to my time or attention. I ignore and ignore and it makes no difference. 😔I ask her to stop, it makes no difference. I just don't want the work of enforcing NC, because I would have to. But I don't know why I can't make that final step. But I feel like one more episode of properly bad behaviour, and I will.

Phew, that turned into an essay.

FWIW my mother can be summed up completely by 'you can't have more children it's too stressful for me.' which is what she said after I had my first. Seriously who says that. It's not normal.

I’ve only been able to eat out in restaurants and in people’s houses for the past few years and I’m 40 now. The whole thing of eating in front of others has always freaked me out. I’d literally vomit if I even smelt the food. I’m not sure what the reason was, I just always felt out of control and totally overwhelmed.

Do narcissists train you? And if you are someone who happens to (wrongly) believe that love in relationships has to be earned you fall for a trap of trying to earn it? I feel like I’ve been sucked into someone else’s very small and not nice world.

@happyfarm I call it grooming rather than training, but I believe that they do. There are recognised stages in a relationship with one. Deffo grooming early on, to get you to accept what happens later. I suspect, though I don't know if there's research, that love bombing doesn't work on everyone, but that some people are particularly vulnerable to it, so the some of the narc's relationship building attempts will fail, but the ones that succeed will be with people who are more vulnerable to being drawn into the abusive relationship.

I also believe that some people just aren't very nice and unfortunately some of us get those people as relatives.

www.simplypsychology.org/narcissistic-relationships-signs-impact-and-how-to-cope.html

Mine said to me“ don’t be having a baby just because you think I want to be a grandparent , I don’t want to be looking after a baby“ which says something about the power / control she thought she had over me. Because yes obviously the only reason I’d want a baby would be to please you.

Not going NC and blocking means you are still secretly hoping/longing for a loving reunion, apology and meaningful communication. It's not going to happen.
My mum was the queen of the ramp up but once blocked it no longer affected me, I also didn't give a shit about the blow back on others, it was up to them how they handled it as long as they didn't involve me.
@CheekySnake your mum is pushing in on your life because you are useful to her, she has no friends. It is up to you if you allow the intrusion but don't be fooled it is for anyone's benefit but hers.
@Happyfarm stop being sucked in, you know exactly what is going on, stop enabling it.

@binkie163 what are your suggestions on how to deal with this relationship. My partner is kind of close, she’s throws a bone now and again he jumps. He takes over our daughter we have together etc. I do want to go to family events with him sometimes as I’d like to be with my kids. I’m not going to play in any particular game, I just don’t want my kids unaccompanied with them. I don’t want anything from them. Would you just turn up your loud happy self and pretend? I don’t want them to change the happy person. Other then some family occasions I grey rock.

@binkie163 you are right in that this is for her benefit and not mine, I am 100% aware of that and remind myself of it often. Have unpicked a lot of it in therapy because I have always felt invisible to her. Had this unbearably miserable childhood (father was a drug using violent bully) and it's become apparent in adulthood that she really didn't see my misery at all. I've got a lot of anger about that. She honestly believed I wasn't affected by it and everything was fine.

I wouldn't have anything to do with them, if your husband is happy with crumbs that's his decision. However allowing them access to your children well you know they are the next scapegoats, why would you allow that, that's just continuing generational trauma, say NO.

You act like you have no agency here at all, you are playing a game but it's their game their rules. They don't like you and have made that very clear, stop grovelling to them. Your desire to be accepted into a family is clouding your judgement.

If your husband is happy that your daughter is subjected to that shit then you also have a husband problem. He is throwing your child under the bus to keep what he is getting out of this dynamic. It is exactly the same as the enabling spouse of narcissistic chucking their kids under the bus to keep the peace, my dad always did this for a quite life.
You are either in or out, you are not in control here, they are, I'm sure you can see that.

@CheekySnake stop asking her to stop, TELL her to stop, better still tell her to fuck off. She doesn't care how your childhood affected you, not then and not now. She has never considered your feelings, it doesn't make you a better person to be kind, it is people pleasing. She never put you first, it is up to you to put yourself first. You may not want to or be able to but then that is on you, your choice to remain in the abuse. It sounds harsh but it is a choice.

The thing is if I don’t play to a certain extent then they get 50% unaccompanied access to my daughter anyway and I know what happens then as my oldest gets contact with her abusive dad. ( although significantly less contact because he was violent, he was a stupid narc and this lady is very intelligent).

@Happyfarm then carry on playing, expose your child to toxicity and be miserable. It is your choice. Try saying no to your husband.

No, it can mean several things. In my case I get an extreme visceral reaction every time I set a tiny boundary and you have to be able to live through that. Every single time.

@CheekySnake This all sounds so familiar. Sometimes I am still amazed that others go through the same thing. At 13 I thought I was the most crazy person in the world, but no, others go through the same.

My job was to stay living close to my mother. I moved abroad at 24 and never returned. There were many instances where it became clear she didn't accept this, expressed her wish I move back etc. One was that for a long time she couldn't call where I life my 'home'. It doesn't occur to her that I have my own life and don't long for mummy.

I discussed the parcel and attempts to contact me with my therapist. She says they do not have the capacity to acknowledge to themselves that I want nothing to do with them. That I was surprised about the parcel because I respect boundaries, and so assumed others do too (ha, keep falling into the trap!) and that it didn't enter my mind they'd do it this way. She warned me I may receive another attempt for contact at Christmas and to take precautions. My blood pressure spiked when she said this, but she's right, I need to prepare mentally for another attempt to contact me.

This is all so bizarre. When I first went NC I heard nothing from them for weeks, I thought this was the first time they respected what I said, but recently they have ramped it up again.

@Twatalert then I think you need to find a way to accept that this is your life, accept it is hard, hurtful and make peace with it. We are the architects of our lives and we can either change or not. Change takes courage.

Handing over unsupervised access of your children to narcissistic people is also very miserable. I can’t see a way out of it.

Well, thank goodness you came here to say that. It will save me ££££ on therapy.

Happy to help, sometimes acceptance is the best you can hope for.

Happyfarm

Why would they at all get 50% access to your child anyway?. 50/50 is but a starting point and is usually cited in divorce cases where the man and woman separate, again as a starting point. Grandparents do not have automatic rights of access to their grandchildren.

Many abusive men demand or otherwise insist on 50/50 as a means of avoiding paying child maintenance.

Because she will be insisting it and she will be enabling it, I have no doubt about that. He is a good man despite having shit parents, there is no reason he would not get 50/50.

Sorry for the random drop in. I lurk here a lot. I am NC with both my parents and have been for a few years now.

Occasionally I will browse a site frequented by estranged parents. I just have to say (somewhere where sane people are) how funny it is when they say their mistake was "loving their children too much".

I cannot wrap my mind around that level of delusional coping. Most of them very clearly hate their children for leaving them. They have no idea what it means to love their child.

"Love them too much". Give me a break. I wonder sometimes what excuses my mother used to maintain her perfect image of herself, and I think this is it.

Shitty people have to make themselves feel better somehow I guess. Back to lurking for me, but thanks for being a safe place for people like me to vent.

@helenwaspushed I browse comments on tiktok about content of estranged adult children. You can always tell when an abusive parent is commenting. It reads like comedy to me now because it's always the same and so predictable. I mean it gives a glimpse into the stories they tell themselves, but I can't quite understand how a reasonably intelligent person will convince themselves of it.

I'm struggling mentally a bit at the moment with my sister. There's a lot of confusion around our relationship, she's the GC and I'm the formerly "easy" middle child / sometime scapegoat. I moved abroad years ago and basically became the least important family member, while GC became enmeshed with nmum and the whole family revolves around her.

I'm VLC with them all, sister deleted me off her social media and ceased contact in September. This has been a periodic thing over the years, and TBH I've been glad of the break from her this time. My health has been in the toilet and interactions with her were becoming more and more stressful.

However, the "good" stuff. She was my bridesmaid this year. She was extremely generous during this time, she was supportive around the wedding, but there also was a massive blow-up at me a few months before, and she launched a smear campaign on my best friend / other bridesmaid. What was quite stressful was her constant gushing over my mother, "mum would love this," "mum said that" etc during the wedding, when that same mother chose to ignore me and prioritise her whole extended family over me throughout. I intentionally didn't include my mother in things like dress shopping, because I knew to include her would be everything from disappointing to devastating. Said mother regularly ignores me when GC is in the same room, she's had no involvement in my life as an adult, never prioritised me, or supported me, and attempts to discuss this with her result in gaslighting and shaming about my "lack of communication". It's after the last attempt to discuss things with my mother back in September, that GC cut me off. That, along with GC talking incessantly about her plan to try for a baby with her boyfriend of 5 minutes, while I'm going through infertility, is I think what caused the latest wedge between us.

We are usually pretty generous towards each other at Christmas. After much debating with DH, I've decided we will travel up to see them all for one night over Christmas, make an appearance, small talk, and be done with it. Parents are old and there's an older disabled sister involved, NC is not possible or advisable in the long run.

But I don't know what to do about GC sister, who will inevitably be centre stage at my parents house with boyfriend in tow. Do I buy her a present? Do I address the lack of contact? Do I plan to ignore her / avoid her? It's all a bit of a minefield.