October 2024 - But we took you to Stately Homes!

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007.

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;
'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.
NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.
'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:
"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.
Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.
Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:
"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.
YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".
"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.
YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".
"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."
"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"
"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."
"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites
Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat for details.

Some books:
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa
This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:
"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"
I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:
"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".
Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwaite
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

Again why would he at all get 50/50 when you are presumeably their primary carer?. How would he fit them in around work etc?. Are you actually thinking about separating from him?.

His mother has really no say here at all.

He may well be a good man Happyfarm but he keeps on throwing you under the bus out of his FOG re his parents, that along with his inertia hurts him as well as you.

wondering

What do you hope to achieve from meeting them?. What you want and what you're likely going to get are two very different things. I would urge you to think again.

Why are you actively putting yourself in harms way here?. They are not interested in hearing your side of things, their purpose here is to keep the toxic narrative going. Your parents had a huge part in creating this dysfunctional dynamic to begin with and just because they are now old does not mean they are less nasty and or less knowing.

I would not go and cite an excuse re being unable to get leave. That also saves the aggro of buying your GC sister a gift, not that she would be bothered about you or a gift in the first place. It's also going to be nigh on impossible to ignore her if you are all under the same roof.

Technically & from a legal standpoint @Happyfarm 's MIL has no say, but we all know that narcs pull all the strings. If her son enables her now, he will continue to do so post separation and feed the kids to the wolf.

@Happyfarm the only possibility might be that he wants 50:50 but then abandons his kids and so they then would not be exposed to the narc. I'm referring to the countless threads on MN, where the hands on dad stops seeing his kids post divorce because he cannot be bothered. That's no guarantee this will happen. Possibly, his mother will pester him to bring along the kids and he will do it because he can't say no to her.

I'm sorry, I can see how difficult this is without an obvious way out. There are risks associated with each option and undoubtedly a lot of pain along the way.

@wonderingwonderingwondering as someone who just got angry about receiving a parcel from her parents after cutting them off, I'd say respect the GC decision to cut you off and do not get her anything. I can see why you think about this and what's best/decent, but she's made it clear and you know where you stand.

The bridesmaid thing has nothing to do with the now. She either was generous because she wanted to, in which case she would not hold it against you, or the generosity was not genuine.

Hi @AttilaTheMeerkat thanks for the response and questions. I don't quite know how to answer this.

But Christmas to a large extent has always been a happy time for my family. I have good memories. And a total cut-off is not something I can embrace at this point due to future issues with my disabled sibling's care / elderly parents / I don't want to set myself up for longer term regret. I know none of these are reasons invested in my own feelings or happiness. But no Christmas appearance feels aggressive and confronting. I have too much on my plate to take on the feelings that will cause for me.

I'm also aware that nothing will have changed with them. And carry fear around my own mental health. The last time I visited was a few months post surgery and my body freaked out from being there. I was ignored by my mother, GC and her very new bf consumed all the energy, it was non stop talk of her job, her investments, her new house while I sat there invisible and suffering. We left early due to it.

@twatalert thank you for pointing this out. Its helpful to see it from another perspective.

The issue I have is this is a rug sweeping family. The dysfunction plays out like this: GC blows up, cut off, then enough time passes for her to feel OK ignoring it all and communicating with me again. This is how my mother operated when we were children.

She also engages in score-keeping and loves to throw her generosity in my face. She keeps a bizarrely impressive log of her generous gestures in her head, while discarding my own generous moments and throwing these out when she feels like it. I've no doubt the narrative now is "after all I did for you at your wedding". It felt uncomfortable at the time because of this pattern.

As an example, she arrived on my doorstep with a pair of Jimmy Choos I'd been talking about for months a few weeks after her blow up / verbal attack on me before my wedding. She's also wealthy, in a big salary job, and supported a lot by my relatively wealthy parents.

@wonderingwonderingwondering totally get the rug sweeping behaviour. It's like this in my family too.

So you expect her to re-establish contact and throw the gift giving in your face only for the cycle to repeat again? Considering NC with the family isn't an option id probably do business as usual and get her what you always get her for Christmas. Basically like a chore. What are the chances she will give you a dressing down for it because she had cut you of? Not a rhetoric question. I just wonder what her track record is.

Long term id consider establishing a different gift culture. Say you will no longer be spending more than X and only do gifts on xyz occasions and that you won't accept any gifts yourself outside of these parameters. Let me guess, there will be drama?

Thanks @twatalert. that sounds like sensible advice. Im trying to understand myself a bit more through your questions.

I guess I'm worried not resuming business as usual ie getting her a decent gift despite the last few months will just be another score on her list of why I'm terrible and she's the saintly generous one. But there's an equal chance of no gift from her and stone-walling during our trip, and viewing my gift as manipulative. She had an episode with me a few years ago where I bought her something I believed was thoughtful, and post strop I got "I'm giving your stupid present to charity."

While I'm writing this all out I'm realising my own pattern of envisaging the many scenarios where it doesnt end well for me and trying to do damage control. More fool me, eh. If this was a different person I'd probably attempt a conversation - DH keeps saying "why don't you just ask her why she blocked you??!" - and I'm realising the normal healthy thing just gets me scapegoated anyway, and she'll maintain her narrative about being incredibly generous and me being incredibly awful anyway. A conversation would spiral into her list of grievances and why I never call her (because it stresses my literal nervous system the F out), how she did XYZ for my wedding and I didn't even get her a housewarming gift etc etc

You're right about the boundaries around gift giving. It's descended into a setup for more abuse down the line.

@wonderingwonderingwondering I think whatever you do this cycle will continue anyway. I'd just do what's easiest for you to live with, although I know this can seem an impossible decision. There is nothing you can do to stop the cycle or lessen the severity, as the GC will continue to seek the drama. She will somehow twist things sooner or later because she needs to uphold the false narrative.

Apologies this is long!
Yes they train you. Train you to accept crumbs of attention and be grateful because compared to the abuse, non-abuse is such a relief and actual crumbs feels wonderful. You mistake it for something good, not realising the rest of the time you're walking in eggshells because abuse is insideous and eggshells becomes normalised without you realising it. Especially in the case of childhood abuse where you've literally never known anything different.

I don't believe love can be earned. Love is just something you feel for someone or you don't. It's not a value judgement. Someone can be a very good person but you still may not love them, if you don't connect in that way. Also we can love (or believe we do, at least in the sense of wanting what's best for someone or of believing that we can't survive without them) a person that really has no/few redeeming features and is treating us very badly very often, but to whom we've become trauma-bonded.

Respect can be earned, but I also don't believe it should have to be by default. I believe respect should be given as standard and only removed if the person proves to be unworthy of respect. Then if they wanted to change their ways they could earn respect again by consistently being a decent person and by doing so proving they've changed. I think it's a red flag if someone says respect has to be earned, as standard. My narc ex used to say that.

The thing is if I don’t play to a certain extent then they get 50% unaccompanied access to my daughter anyway and I know what happens then as my oldest gets contact with her abusive dad. ( although significantly less contact because he was violent, he was a stupid narc and this lady is very intelligent).

It's not quite the same because contact with DD and father is court ordered, until she's old enough to refuse and then it goes back to court to confirm that, I guess. But contact with other DD and grandma isn't court ordered because grandma isn't her parent, so DD is put through it only until she can say No to your DH. Which if you're backing her up to say No and she's brought up not to tolerate shite, that should be quite early on in her scapegoating process.

Honestly the way this ends, that I see, is she either
a) goes NC with you both when she realises you put her in the position of scapegoat and tolerated it for her because that was easiest for you both, so escapes generational abuse that way.
b) Or to escape the generational abuse pattern she goes NC with DH because she's trying to say No, backed up by you (who she keeps contact with), to Grandma's abuse. But he's putting pressure on her to tolerate it, which at that point means he's actively being abusive himself.
c) Or she gets sucked into being part of these abusive relationships with relatives and ends up miserable in adulthood, like all of us. I think that's less likely outcome though because it's a grandma not a parent doing it. Easier to walk away from a grandma, we're not pre-programmed to love them in the same way a child is pre-programmed to love a parent. More likely to happen though if she's left to be scapegoat by both her parents.
d) Or best case scenario, if you're lucky, DH sees things from yours/DDs perspective and maintains his relationship with his mother by himself. Then DD escapes the generational abuse pattern and it stops with DH.

It's not an easy thing to sort out because nobody has a crystal ball. It's doubly hard for you because I can see that if you completely put DD first it might lead to divorce for you. He is who he is though and that's mummy's boy first and foremost. Not the man who loves his nuclear family more than anything and always has yours and DDs back. So for me, having seen that, it'd be the beginning of the end anyway. To stay together (if I was you) he'd have to change and people rarely do, especially if they don't want to or see any reason to. So for me I'd have to say No to exposing DD to any more toxicity and if that blows up into a divorce so be it, because the whole thing regarding my DC welfare would be a deal breaker for me anyway.
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In my case I get an extreme visceral reaction every time I set a tiny boundary and you have to be able to live through that. Every single time

Twat blocking is a one off though. Not every single time because it's only once. I know I'm pointing out the obvious and you're not daft, but just thought I'd mention it since sometimes we can't see the wood for the trees.
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I've received a Christmas invitation 😭 (they're not tears of happiness). I am very proud of myself for not firing back a frustrated response whilst panicking. I'm going to construct the least emotional and most practical response and send it in a few days. This is the one thread where we can't ask in innocent conversation what everyone's doing for Christmas! 😫

A response no matter how carefully worded could be seen by the toxic as an attack do they will act accordingly.

Do not forget it’s an invite , not a summons. Do not give it any more power than it at all warrants. If you do not want to attend just say you have other plans on so will need to respectfully decline.

wondering if you're going there, I'd buy a token gift for sister and blame it on cost of living if anyone challenges you re less generosity than usual. I'd put about 5min thought into what to buy. Let GC and BF take centre stage, all the more easier for you to grey rock everyone if they're listening to her. I'd be accepting in advance that whatever I do it'll be wrong, but if you're only attending to "go through the motions" of playing happy family, does it matter?

Thanks Atilla (if that post was aimed at me).
I'm treading the line between emotionally disengaged and full NC. If I get attacked or not will determine if this situation becomes one of NC. I'm not going to do what they want (I'm being "encouraged" to gatecrash someone's event! 😱😆). If they want to set up a different meet-up and at a more suitable time for me, I'll attend and pretend I'm still part of this family for a short while. I need to see how the birthday goes in a few days time too, it might all blow up before Christmas if we don't get left in peace for that.

@SamAndAnnie what worries me is who looks after my daughter. My oldest gets every other weekend with her dad but it’s his girlfriend really taking care of her. My youngest could and would be the most likely situation be taken care by his mum when he works (she is an ex childminder). I was in court years with my eldest so I know how it goes. I can’t bare the thought of worst case scenario she is being part raised in the family without anyone seeing what’s happening but me. This woman is clever, I’ve never met someone like this. She is in control of all the village committees and charities, housing etc etc. I am not really anything compared and I honesty think she’d stamp on me and do this via him and contact to make her seem like a hero. I’m at a bit of a loss with it at the moment. She has already started some kind of rumours about me and my past and that I’m still affected.

Hello everyone, I’m new in these threads (first time posting in stately homes). I’m not sure if I have engaged fully with my childhood experiences, but as an an adult am seeing some really odd behaviours (similar to described here) that is just worsening over time. The FOG is real! I’ve recently put some boundaries in place and the reaction from her is entirely outrageous. I’m quite sure (hopefully) that I am being reasonable to protect myself and my daughter, but she just makes me feel so guilty. Am I able to talk about it a bit here?

To all of you that have suffered, I’m so sorry - it’s truly awful that you experienced these things from the people that were supposed to adore you and make you feel on top of the world.

I look at my dear sweet daughter and I cannot ever imagine acting in this way towards her, which makes looking at how my mother acts even more hurtful.

Welcome @Todaypicard everyone here has doubted themselves the way you have. Of course you are reasonable to protect yourself and your daughter. Remember your nervous system doesn't lie. You decide how you and your daughter want to be treated. Zero approval needed from anyone and any sane person would accept your decisions. Decisions are boundaries.

Thank you so much for your reply.
Theres so much, too much etc back story to mention. Currently the main issue is that I have decided that I won’t see DM’s husband of 5 years as I’m fed up of the FOG and him putting me down when I go round. He openly dislikes me and has offensive views. DM lives 20 mins from me, and I’ve asked her to visit here instead, or I’ll pick her up and we will have days out or go for lunch etc. But she doesn’t like this for reasons that don’t make any sense/she won’t explain. I also don’t wish for him to see our small child as she’s at the age where she picks up on what he says and is starting to copy. I feel I need to protect us both by having this boundary. DM hates this and has said I’m “making her choose between DH and DGD” and that I’m “punishing her”. She’s now said she can’t continue to provide occasional childcare (4 hours one day per week in about half the school holidays) as she couldn’t possibly do it at our house or a soft play etc. I feel terrible as I think she’s building to go NC. I just need some perspective. I can give more details if you need it

@Todaypicard we have to make decisions that are in our own best interest but more importantly for our children. Your mum is forcing you into the decision you have offered alternative, she has declined.
Slightly different but I had a great friend of last 5 years, I can't stand her husband, irritable bully and not very educated. We use to meet up for walks, coffee etc but the last year she has wanted to do coffee at her home where he is permanently butting in the conversation, always about him, moans all the time. They would also argue, the last time him screaming in her face. I said I couldn't do it anymore and let's go back to meeting out for coffee and of course he won't let her. I haven't contacted her since it isn't my place to point out the obvious to her and he is her husband.
Your mum will side with her husband every time, find alternative childcare and don't fear them going NC you need to protect your child from abusive environments. You are being bullied into accepting their toxic behaviour. She can see your child but not with him, her choice. Fuck them run for the hills.

@Todaypicard I don't think she's winding up to go NC, it strikes me that she's applying pressure to make you back down and return to how things were before. The idea that you're making her choose between the two of them (when you're not, actually) is gaslighting. That's all it is. Pressure to make you change your mind by shaking your confidence in your decision. I would take some time before responding, let your feelings settle, then you can reply when you're calm and sure about what you want rather than rushing to appease or being angry. Our only weapon is being calm, clear and logical.

Hi all, new to the thread and could do with some advice/ handhold/ boot to the derrière please.

I went NC with my mum in August. Her birthday was in the middle of the straw-that-broke-the-camel’s back falling out, so I posted the voucher I’d already bought (she’s a 40 minute drive away), and have blocked her on all comms. She’s appeared at my house twice, once my teens let her in (I was out), the second time we stayed out the back and didn’t let her in because I couldn’t face it. I’ve had Christmas cards from people on her side of the family she’s close to, with no mention of this.

I feel like I should send a card and postable gift. But then I think that encourages contact, which I don’t want. There wasn’t a huge row, it was more a monumental eye roll and I am done. I know she’s telling people it’s about something wholly unrelated that renders her blameless and I am not countering, just walking away. Whatever I say she will twist it, deny it etc and I just cba. I’m just done.

Do I send a gift (I think probably no, it just feels wrong, bad daughter). I suppose the first year, first occurrence of everything is a potential hiccup.

Does anyone else ever feel like other people just don't get it?

Had a message from my mother talking about Xmas presents, saying she's got me 'a little something.' Barf. I know from past experience that whatever it is, it will be shit and I will be hurt and disappointed by it (because it's so shit) but will be polite and pretend it's fine. FWIW she's the sort to ask you what you want and then say but I don't want to buy that I want to buy x. She hasn't given me an Xmas present in 20 years because I told her we weren't doing adult presents any more, partly to avoid the upset of the shit present scenario, and also because I didn't want to give her anything. I find it hard enough sending a card.

Anyway, was obviously very triggered by this yesterday, the physical reaction is so strong and I can't seem to get it under control. DH just says things like don't let it bother you, who cares, why won't you stop dwelling on the past. I know logically that he can't understand it but I'm so hurt that he's not angry at her, but is annoyed with me for not just being able to get over it. I am trying. I would love to feel nothing when she makes contact. But it's starting to dawn on me that actually I really hate her 😞.

Don't send a gift unless you want to resume contact. It will be seen as a sign that there's a relationship to salvage and invite communication. It also (from her POV) will be confusing. Why send a present if the relationship is done.

That doesn't mean you have to decide to never send anything ever again, because never is a very long time, but if you are comfortable with NC right now and it is working for you, then don't break your own rule and make contact.

@CheekySnake nobody bloody gets it apart from others who have a similar relationship. To most these people are completely different, who they show themselves for their real selves to seem to be so minor.

@CheekySnake thank you, I think I just needed someone to say it. I’ve had occasional pangs of maybe it’s not that bad, maybe I over-reacted, and then I shake myself and carry on.

You’re completely right that people from normal families don’t get it. Lucky them.

No to sending a gift to your mother sockinthebath. Where did these thoughts about sending her a gift come from?.