Does anal sex need explicit consent?

[TellingFriends]

2 month relationship.

Man and woman have consensual PIV sex. Is it acceptable for him to have anal sex with her without asking first?

Woman would not have consented if asked beforehand but did not stop him.

Is it fair for him to assume the woman will say no if she doesn't want it?

Woman had never had anal sex before. Woman is also a CSA survivor but he didn't know this.

BTW you can talk on line to rape crisis so you don't have to speak out loud if that helps.

I completely agree. This thread made me think of my otherwise very toxic ex I dated for a short time in my 20s and what he would do.

I know with me he asked consent for anal - it was denied and he didn’t push it. He was known as the devil in our social circle at one point and this was mainly based on his behaviour towards women and yet even he knew just slipping into anal is a no no.

So it’s been particularly surprising and awful to see on this thread some women normalising men not checking consent for anal. I hope no one who reads this is misled into thinking it’s OK or it’s their fault if they freeze.

I’m almost getting tired of coming back to say this at this point.

But can we stop vilifying people for having a different opinion to you. “It’s been awful to see,” etc. Just using this one particular post as the example.

It IS okay for some people to not gain consent, or give consent, in the exact way that you approve of. Since the OP asked initially if he could have assumed consent, some of us have been trying to repeatedly say that yes he could, because people do that with us, and our reactions are different.

Not better, or worse, or right, or wrong - different.

I personally haven’t said she’s in the wrong for feeling how she does, or that I think those of you that are saying to report it and that he’s a vile human who had a master plan etc etc are all awful.

Why don’t we all stop going on about other women daring to have an opposing view and making out we’re neanderthals for seeing the situation differently.

Since the OP asked initially if he could have assumed consent, some of us have been trying to repeatedly say that yes he could, because people do that with us, and our reactions are different.

Men assume consent for anal sex with you while you're sleepy and have taken a sedative?

Men you've had sex with about 4 times and only been on 7/8 dates with.

Your reactions are different, how?
You feel happy when a man you've had sex with a few times penetrates your anus with no discussion while having vaginal intercourse, while you're sleepy and possibly still under the influence of a drug?
You feel all happy and chilled afterward? And like his assumption of consent for a sex act in an orifice not evolved for it, that can be painful etc. was perfectly justified?

Pull the other one.

Even if you do🙄, some woman being ok with the above (I don't know any) does not mean others would be ..... So he still has not gained/ignored consent for a significant sex act.
There's a word for that.

Expecting the woman to protest after he's already penetrated them in the anus is past the point of consent.

Well that’s exactly what I mean. Go back through our exchanges and look for rolled eyes.

The key difference is that I don’t view anal sex as different to any other kind of sex. The kind that I’ve already said I don’t have discussions that you refer to about. I’m happy to keep making that point over and over again, but surely you’re bored of that at this point.

What I’m saying is that women like me exist. You may not approve or like it, but we do. So there is a chance, however slim you think it may be, he had no idea the OP would feel this way.

I’ve got no idea either way, frankly neither do you - we’re all guessing his motives at this point, but other perspectives exist.

we’re neanderthals for seeing the situation differently

You don't see the situation differently.

You don't care about consent.

You are a rape apologist and minimiser.

And I think Neanderthals would possibly have more empathy and sense.

I’m really surprised mumsnet are allowing misinformation about rape to be posted on this thread and not taking any steps to remove or correct it. Specifically, posters saying that it isn’t rape when OP has explained an incident of rape.

This isn’t a matter of opinion, it’s legal (and moral) fact about the definition of rape.

Given the woefully low reporting rates for rape it’s incredibly harmful (to both the OP and anyone else reading this) for the victim blaming and misinformation to be left up as if it’s a valid alternative opinion.

The key difference is that I don’t view anal sex as different to any other kind of sex

Then you're extremely unusual.

Don't project your extremely unusual views onto other women.

And good luck with the faecal incontinence.

It IS okay for some people to not gain consent,

No it's not. Some people have a fetish where they live out rape fantasies or allow their partner to use their body but they've agreed to it and consented.

I don't understand why you keep coming into the thread and telling people that because you have been violated and you're ok with that, it's acceptable. It's not.

Rape isn't acceptable. It's amazing that needs to be spelt out, but there you go. Lots of people don't understand consent so it's hardly surprising some are trying to justify assault.

What I’m saying is that women like me exist. You may not approve or like it, but we do.

Extreme minorities who are happy with potentially damaging sex acts to be performed on then by men they don't know well, while they're under the influence of a drug, without clear consent or discussion .....

..... are not the bench mark for our laws.

For very obvious reasons.

Regardless of your views on anal sex, if he’d been spooning her from behind while she’s half asleep and then unexpectedly shoved his dick in her vagina that would also be rape. The fact they’d had consensual vaginal sex previously doesn’t change that.

The fact it was a totally new sexual act that they’d never done before, just makes it even clearer that it wasn’t a misunderstanding and he was actively choosing not to get her consent.

I didn’t ask for or require your judgement, thank you for that though.

I’ve also not told anyone what they can and can’t do.

I appreciate the legal system disagrees, I’ve honestly never read it. There are however people in the world who, for various sex acts, are not dealing in explicit consent.

You can think they’re unusual, we’re all entitled to an opinion, but there’s only one side of this debate judging the other, and it’s you.

There are however people in the world who, for various sex acts, are not dealing in explicit consent.

Sure there are. We've got a word for them. Rapists.

there’s only one side of this debate judging the other, and it’s you

There's only one side of this debate minimising & denying rape (and ignoring the law of this land), I'm happy to judge in those circumstances.

You're perfectly entitled to have that opinion about your own life. It doesn't change the fact that a man who behaves like that is acting illegally. You are entitled not to care or complain, but his was still an unlawful act. It is what he does, not your reaction, that makes it illegal.

I didn’t say it was acceptable. I’ve never made any claim that my view should be the universal one and you’re all wrong.

What I actually “keep coming back for” is to address the people repeatedly claiming the same in reverse.

I can tell, more than happy by all accounts!

Neanderthals may well have been quite nice people; we eradicated them.

Are you ok? If you're in a difficult relationship or have experienced some trauma, please speak to someone, perhaps a domestic abuse organisation or rape crisis.

No one should be violating your boundaries, doing anything you're not comfortable with or springing anything you don't want on you. I'm sorry to hear they have.

Please know that you have every right to your body and every right to say no.

I was just wondering - if other women were ok with being choked or punched in the face during sex - without prior discussion or explicit consent - would you argue that a man who does that to you, could definitely have assumed consent, and that he'd be reasonable in assuming consent for that?

How would you feel about your risk of asphyxiation and facial injuries?

Presumably totally cool with it - other women like that without explicit consent so it was perfectly possible for him to have assumed you would too, right?

You don't seem to realise how utterly utterly bonkers it is that you think that - because you personally don't mind being suddenly penetrated in the anus by men you don't know well, for the first time, without explicit consent (and in this case sleepy & under the influence of a sedative too) . ..that a random man could reasonably have assumed consent for that with all other women.

Apparently we mixed with them (I don't know if it was voluntarily) before we eradicated them, so we have some neanderthal DNA.

I’m honestly not suggesting he definitely could assume anything. Because I definitely don’t know that for a fact.

What I am suggesting, is that if he’s been “doing consent” differently with others, he could be doing it the same way here.

Sure you can argue he needs educating because he’s doing it wrong, you’re probably about to, but the possibility still exists.

That is unfair of them. It is your life and you're entitled to live it the way you want. As I pointed out, heterosexual anal intercourse was illegal even with full consent until 1994.
What would be wrong would be if you were on a jury and wanted to acquit a man who raped someone because of your personal views on consent.

Completely. Because those people have at least I’d imagine have been briefed on the law. Which I’m not disagreeing says what it says.

But I can also see that, maybe a minority of people it seems, haven’t read it before they have sex with someone.

Most people don't need to rely on reading an actual law to remind them that consent is important.