Feel that Dh friendship with woman is destroying our marriage

[gruffalo5]

Dh and I happily married for over 15 years, 3 dc. 2 years ago a woman joins dh workplace and they gradually become very good friends. She has Dh and dc. Last year I asked to borrow his phone for a number and saw her name (he hadn’t mentioned her at that point) to my shame I looked and saw their messages and there were so, so many, day and late into the evening. They weren’t particularly flirty but what hit me like a punch to the stomach was the obvious closeness and fondness they have for each other. Things they were both interested in going to see. My dh and I have always had that great friends kind of relationship as well as being married so I think it especially hurt. I owned up and asked him about it and he was really angry I’d looked and accused me of coercive control when I asked him to reduce the messaging. They see each other at work so why she has to send him photos on a Friday night and of what’s she’s up to at the weekend I don’t really understand.
He has other female friends which I’ve never thought twice about but there’s something about her that feels as though she’s pushing the boundaries and it’s creating such a wedge between us. Admittedly I’ve been very upset and over emotional and it was suggested I go on ADs which has helped me a bit but I still feel really upset as though she’s always there now, in the background. He says I’m destroying the marriage by being like this and nothing is happening with them, they are just mates. Just don’t know what to do, it all just makes me feel very sad and that maybe I’m not enough anymore.

@LaughingElderberry God the MRA apologists are absolutely bloody everywhere. When did the bar sink so bloody low?

No one here is a "men's rights activist" FGS. It's obvious that those posters your referring to are not defending OP's husband. They're defending themselves.

Look at it psychologically. Some women reading this thread will have male friends they go out with or text from time to time. They're not doing anything wrong and they've never felt they were. But now, as they read page after page of the OP's husband being called a twat, cunt, etc, doubt sets in. Am I the same as this guy? It's not a conscious thought, but it's there.

Without really knowing why, they feel compelled to post details of their own situation and thereby prove that they are not twats. Then they can feel reassured. The human urge to show everyone that you are "not the bad guy" is strong.

Tbf this is a very good point.

This is spot on. Very perceptive.

Every single situation I have known in real life where one half of a relationship had a ‘very close special friend’ of the opposite sex ended up cheating with them. That’s happened to a couple of friends, a work colleague and my own sister. On the other hand I don’t know of any happy couples where one of them has a friendship like that – none at all. The difference is likely that the individuals in those couples understand how to keep a boundary and aren’t looking for additional intimacy outside of their relationship.

This has ZERO to do with having friends of the opposite sex. I have two tremendous male uni mates who text and go to lunch and dinner with. Are we texting daily and into evening? No. Am I pouring my heart out to them over this, that and the other? No, because I don’t need to or want to. My DH is my person for that. Do I have a female friend I pour my heart out to? Yes, but I don’t text her excessively and my DH gets the heart pouring too. That’s the difference.

@RainbowColouredRainbows - You may not fancy him but he will definitely fancy you and go for it if offered. He's a man after all.

It’s called an emotional affair, and I’m suprised so many on this thread are turning it on the OP. He is investing his emotional energy into another woman with a daily connection. He can call it just friendship if he wants, but who talks to any friend with that level of frequency unless they are really invested

I understand your point about projection. However there are several posts throughout this thread where posters aren't using their own experiences - they are just shooting straight to telling the OP that she's controlling, or that she's irrational. I am also not the first person to make the point about MRA focus.

He is a cunt.

He is more worried about upsetting this friend or embarrassing her than he is about upsetting you.

How would he feel you had a similar close male friend? Bet he’d feel differently then.

It is so awful to realise that your dh doesn’t care about you. He cares about a woman who has zero sympathy for you and wishes you out of the way.
they will say - oh we wish you well op, oh we couldn’t help this we just fell in love blah blah blah.
The best thing you can do is leave them to it - and have nothing more to do with them. I can guarantee at some point he will come back all apologetic - but by then you may not want him,

It's so very hard to find yourself on the sidelines watching your husband fall in love with another woman.

And that's it with an emotional affair it's a slow motion death that is devastating and painful, add to it the denials from a much changed partner and it becomes a nightmare.

It's so completely different for the person on the recieving end of disloyalty and betrayal, maybe not so much for the betrayer, they can delude themselves to believe their behaviour is innocent.

There will be some on here that know they are doing wrong but the real wickedness is the denial of their behaviour and that's incredibly cruel.

We see you.

he Should be respecting you and your feelings. My husband has female friends that I’m fine with but this is more than a friendship in my opinion. He is prioritizing this friendship over your marriage so effectively your marriage is over

He is being very disrespectful to his wife and their marriage. No spouse should ever be surprised by a spouse’s friendship. And seeking any relationship that is hidden from them is a big red flag. Him being upset that she looked at his phone is another red flag.

A good marriage is based upon trust. That means that my phone, computer, bank accounts, etc, are all open to my wife’s viewing at ANY time, and hers are open to me.

If I have business or lunch with a female friend or associate, my wife is the first to know. Obstain from all appearance of wrongdoing and the wrongdoing will take care of itself. Anything less is emotional infidelity with your spouse.

This doesn’t mean that you can’t have a close friendship with someone of the opposite sex. It means that it should never happen without your spouses knowledge AND consent.

In my view these situations are the greatest tragedy and threat to marriages. Because unlike the serial cheats, the greedy and the concienceless, where the betrayer is no great loss, these are the situations that result in the ruin of otherwise good marriages to otherwise decent people.
A person at 40 something suddenly meets someone they may have far more in common with through their day to day contact, and who resonates more with who they are now, than the person they committed to decades earlier.
They become friends with this new and interesting person. Then 'best friends', comforted by the idea that 'men and women should be able to be friends!!!!' That their frienship is special, like a brother/sister/soulmate.
They start to confide inappropriately and disloyally. They respond to each others marital woes in ways that reinforce they would not behave like the spouse so would be a more suitable partner.
Their colleagues call them each others work husband/wife, and in the office they're an established pair. People who like them both will often think it's sweet, and sad they're not together so will collude with them when they progress to deceit.
Which is almost always what they eventually do, because unlike the casual oppprtunist cheat, they have a bond beyond the physical and have often fallen in love and come to care for each other more than their spouse.
These situations are a marital crisis that should be recognised by both parties and cut off immediately if the marriage is to survive.

@5128gap spot on!

Yes! Summed it up perfectly.

Its a difficult one, I was in your husbands female friends position and good friends with a guy who'd been my colleague previously. I am married and got on ok with his wife as well, we even did a few things just the two of us a few times but after she had kids she no longer felt ok with me and her husband being friends or hanging out which is fair enough. I waited it out a bit but when it became clear it was becoming a real issue I totally backed off and I hardly ever see him now, we mostly send the very odd email. I am still open to friendship with them both in the future but they have young kids and their marriage is more important than my friendship with her husband. I would imagine most women if they really are just friends if they knew it was causing an issue would back off and give the couple their space.

@5128gap "They start to confide inappropriately and disloyally. They respond to each others marital woes in ways that reinforce they would not behave like the spouse so would be a more suitable partner."

Rule number one of platonic male + female friendships is never to do this, save it for your girlfriends. This might be ok if the friendship truly was platonic but usually at least one person is attracted to the other (usually the man will be at least somewhat attracted to the woman) and this kind of talk can open the door to the above. Where difficulty comes in is that often men prefer to talk to women about their emotional lives and relationships so when a man talks to his female friend about his marriage issues and the woman responds with empathy and warmth (as she would to her female friends) then considering she is likely to be attractive to him in some way then it is pretty inevitable that this sympathy will only pour fuel on the fire of any feelings he may be harbouring for her.

Its kind of shit really because it means women end up having to be constantly on guard against this kind of thing in opposite sex friendships because men often have less insight and don't see how all this works they will think it all happened by accident rather than following a predictable pattern which is what actually happens.

As someone who has had quite a few male platonic friends over the years and feels that men and women should be able to be friends it seems they pretty much always end up catching feelings for you in the end and it gets messy.

I think it gets messy because men don't apply the basic rule of not treating women friends the same way as they would their male friends. If they would just apply the would I do this if it were Joe not Joanne? rule, there'd be no issues. I agree with you its different for women because the friendships we have with men often don't look that different from the ones we have with other women in terms of confiding, regularity of contact, some physical affection and so on. So I guess for women the question needs to be, If I were single, would I date him?

@5128gap That is true, there is also this thing where you will have a chat with a male friend and to him its the deepest most revelatory conversation he's had in a long time with anyone but to a woman its barely scratched the surface of how deep you would go with another woman. I think that is perhaps a danger zone for male/female friendships. Its possible at times that a guy might be trying so hard to be strong for a female partner or perhaps there is a communication breakdown in his relationship that this feeling of connection is enough to tip the friendship over into something more at least for him and obviously it can cut both ways if the woman friend is single or unhappy in her own relationship.

I suppose I think of your question that women ask themselves about "would they date him if single" that it might be ok if they would provided everyone is happy and connected in their romantic relationships but any mutual attraction does create a foundation for danger if that where ever to cease to be the case and I do think most men will choose female friends they are at least somewhat attracted to. I think most of my male friends have had at least some quality drinking too much, too loud, too intrusive, whereby I liked them as friends but would never have wanted to be with them. I also don't drink and alcohol is often the cover for things that just happen in these cases.

And I’d add that this other, also married woman, knows this. She knows exactly what she’s doing. She’ll know the impact on she’ll be having. But she’s doing it anyway for whatever reason.
when I’ve seen this happen before, the woman is often a bit of an ‘alpha woman’ type. Thinks she’s special. But actually is also deeply insecure. Needs constant validation that she’s better than others. I’ve seen it described as a ‘pick me’ girl. Acts like ‘one of the lads’ - will go out and drink pints or talk football/bands with the men, act like their best friend, desperate for their attention, desperate for the validation that they’re so undeniably amazing that they could take another woman’s husband if they wanted to.

@Didimum exactly- my H did exactly this with someone who did bits of casual work for us many years ago - I did notice the amount of texting on our phone bills at the time and said something- he went as white as a sheet and said they were just friends- after all she was21 and he was 41.

Ten years later I found a load of poems and songs stuffed in a drawer all about 'his feelings' and being trapped etc- and it was obvious who they were about.

He then said it was just 'a crush' on his part at a difficult time in his life and she had no idea- it was in his head- I have no idea if that was the case or not.

All I can say is I felt a total mug - we are still married (28 years) we get along well but I have never felt 100% as I did and I certainly don't trust as blindly as I once did . He isn't a player at all and it totally blindsided me. I'm also far more cynical about 'friends' of the opposite sex that are constantly contacting each other most days when they have a partner or marriage

@KaleQueen To be fair some women do genuinely like bands or sports that are typically in the "male domain" and might enjoy chatting to them about these things without feeling like they are special or being desperate for attention. I mean I could see the scenario you describe happening but I don't think it would automatically follow that this would occur. I don't drink any alcohol or enjoy any sports or act like one of the lads but I do like certain kinds of music where if I go to the gigs its a total sausage fest and I've made some friends with guys who like the same music but I have not interest in being one of the lad or wooing anyone's husband to boost my own ego.

@5128gap - your posts are fabulously insightful and nailing the key points every time.

Speaking very generally, a core difficulty is that both women and men typically look to women for conversations about feelings and relationships. And those conversations open up a degree of intimacy. For women, this is the same intimacy that we have with other women so it feels platonic.

For men, this isn’t an experience they would usually have with their male friends and therefore might not feel particularly platonic. That said, I’m in my 50s. I wonder whether the younger generations of men are better at discussing feelings with each other so perhaps this may change, but my teen DDs say they seem not to be.

To anyone saying you'd be okay with this, you're missing the fact, that him messaging her will be affecting Op's quality time with her DH. I would not be happy if DH was texting anyone all night...... If you're chatting, he's got half his brain on another conversation, probably only half listening to you. If you're watching a film together, he's missing bits because he's distracted. Not being fully present with me, because he's texting another woman, would be a huge problem. It's like there are three people in the room! To say differently baffles me.

Brilliant post @5128gap

When two worlds collide, a work world and a home life, sometimes the details are a little different and the work world may not be a constant, it maybe a transient work friend/ colleague.

In many cases the male will want to pull away from home life and need more freedom to commit time to the other world. Wives can see this happen.

I agree if it is not ended instantly there is little hope for men to return to being friends with their wives again and that will be the catalyst for the end. Men have no idea how damaging losing friendship with their wives is, they believe only when something physical starts is the beggining of the unfaithful act.

The one thing which you are not allowed to point out is that ow do recognise how damaging losing friendship with your h is.