Feel that Dh friendship with woman is destroying our marriage

[gruffalo5]

Dh and I happily married for over 15 years, 3 dc. 2 years ago a woman joins dh workplace and they gradually become very good friends. She has Dh and dc. Last year I asked to borrow his phone for a number and saw her name (he hadn’t mentioned her at that point) to my shame I looked and saw their messages and there were so, so many, day and late into the evening. They weren’t particularly flirty but what hit me like a punch to the stomach was the obvious closeness and fondness they have for each other. Things they were both interested in going to see. My dh and I have always had that great friends kind of relationship as well as being married so I think it especially hurt. I owned up and asked him about it and he was really angry I’d looked and accused me of coercive control when I asked him to reduce the messaging. They see each other at work so why she has to send him photos on a Friday night and of what’s she’s up to at the weekend I don’t really understand.
He has other female friends which I’ve never thought twice about but there’s something about her that feels as though she’s pushing the boundaries and it’s creating such a wedge between us. Admittedly I’ve been very upset and over emotional and it was suggested I go on ADs which has helped me a bit but I still feel really upset as though she’s always there now, in the background. He says I’m destroying the marriage by being like this and nothing is happening with them, they are just mates. Just don’t know what to do, it all just makes me feel very sad and that maybe I’m not enough anymore.

i think it’s really useful to have this side - it helps to validate the OP - this does happen. It’s not unusual. She needs to nip it before it turns physical and that’s it, game over. Out of interest how on earth did you manage 600 messages a day without his wife even noticing?!

OP, I feel your pain. My DH has worked with women for years and I have never had a problem with any of them. Until he became ‘best friends’ - his words - with a woman at his current job. He worked with her all day and then they messaged in the evenings and at weekends. He said they had soooo much in common and that they just clicked and were really close. She told him she felt she could tell him anything. The difference between your DH and mine is that mine talked about this bloody woman non stop so I knew she existed. Their messages weren't particularly flirty but they were also a bit pointless. It was like it was the communication that was important not the actual content. Anyway, the point I wanted to make is that it wasn't the friendship or even the messaging that was a big problem it was the not telling me things because he thought I would be upset ie she had sent him a ‘work husband’ valentines card 🤮 which I found by accident three months later in his work bag. It was the lying about where he was , told me he was stuck on the bus when in fact he was sat on a bench waiting for her to arrive for a night out at the pub with other work people. If he had told me the truth I would have been fine but its the lying that destroys your trust. Why lie? There are plenty of other examples of him lying or lying by omission but I could be here all day. Anyone that says they didn't tell you because it would have caused an argument and that is better that they didn't tell you so you were kept in the dark, ignorance is bliss and all that, are obviously people who haven’t been lied to. Once the trust has gone its very difficult to see your OH in the same light again even if they have lied about stupid things that weren't worth lying about.

Really? He'd probably just put his shoes on and go off to meet the other woman, thinking he was now in an open relationship.

Yes @Greenphonecase exactly that - the ease with which he lied has just shifted my feelings for him. Maybe temporarily but I don’t know.

Mmmm possibly 🤔It depends what he's like. Some blokes would be absolutely raging - as in, it's fine for them to do it but how dare their wife get male attention!!!

I think it's irrational given OP didn't actually say this. What OP said was, it feels like it (to OP). That's a world away. But aside from that, this situation is clearly in a feelings no mans land. I would be pissed off if DW did this.

I don't understand your post.

So true! It's just another way of saying, "This woman feels differently about certain things than I do, and I resent that, even though it's nothing to do with me - so I'll take her down a peg or two, to show her that I am right"

Given you have a 2 and 3 year old, I'm surprised he has the time. You both work. Does he do his half of the childcare?

I am not sure what OP can reasonably achieve. She has made her point to DH. I would back off now and see what happens. Either DH will chose her or he won't.

Alternatively OP can make some kind of ultimatum, but that seems pretty likely to fail and result in almost certain separation or at least a lot of bad feelings for a long time. Which I dont think OP wants and I dont think i would want.

I would probably just try and re-gain my own friendship with DH and build on that. I wouldn't be very happy if DH had this sort of friendship but on the other hand, having also 3 small children, a life together and a sense her DH actual won't cheat / isn't cheating, i don't think I would break up my relationship over this.

No one should come close to having a similar level of intimacy and friendship as you do with your husband. Full stop. The fact that he 'doesn't believe' in emotional affairs is bullshit – he's either a) doesn't have the emotional intelligence to comprehend them, which means he'd be a shit partner to anyone or b) Says he doesn't believe in them to let himself off the hook and prioritise his own feelings.

It doesn't even matter if he doesn't believe in emotional affairs – you do and that's all that matters, because your boundaries in a relationship are your boundaries.

Prioritising any relationships and any of woman's feelings above yours, as his wife and the mother of his children, is disgustingly disrespectful. If I knew my husband was uncomfortable with any friendship I had (with the caveat of knowing he is never controlling or abusive) I would be horrified and do whatever I could to ensure that he knows and feels like he is my number 1.

Why your husband is not doing that for you is awful.

I was in a very similar situation last year, I even had a thread about it. I felt exactly the same as you - uncomfortable but didnt want to look paranoid or controlling.

In my case my DHs colleague was half his age. It wasn't so much the amount of messages, there weren't actually that many. It was the fact that when there was anything important going on she was the first person he contacted. When he had an operation she was the first person he contacted when he woke up, when his dad died she was the first person he told (even before his children), he discussed our marriage problems with her.
He had lots of female friends at work - the 60 Yr old cleaner, the 50 Yr old boss, but of course it was the young pretty nurse that he connected with 🤣
I was told on here that it was an emotional affair, I hadn't heard of such a thing until then!
I told him how unhappy I was with it and he scaled it right back (as far as I know!)

He left the workplace a few months ago and we have recently been having marital problems again.
He contacted her straight away for a 'woman's perspective ' lol. They had kept in touch and I had full access to his phone so he wasnt hiding it.
He maintains they are just friends, what would she see in him? etc...
Our marriage is basically over due to many other things, but this has been a constant problem for me throughout.

Sounds like an emotional affair. The none work related messages should stop and certainly no messaging late night and weekends.
It's not right that you've gone onto AD over this as you've done nothing wrong!!!!

He is gaslighting you! It’s shocking he’s accused you of cohesive control.

He’s a selfish entitled man who has crossed YOUR boundaries.

This has all the hall marking of an emotional affair.

Read ‘just good friends’ by Shirley glass not sure if anyone else has suggested this.

That's entirely your perogative. However the OPs husband isn't married to you. He's married to one of the majority of people who would not be comfortable with this situation. Obviously he is entitled to choose his autonomy to do as he pleases over his relationship. Just as someone would be entitled to choose their autonomy to sleep with who they pleased over their relationship. That would not make them a desirable spouse in most peoples eyes, and neither does this.
And its a bit disingenuous to frame the only alternative to this very intense situation as 'perfunctory and superficial' friendships. Most people are able to strike the balance between having meaningful friendships and not making another person the centre of our world and displacing our spouse with them.

This is entirely it – 'displacing your spouse'. It's a no brainer when that is beginning to happen in a 'friendship' and it's not OK.

Of course there is physical attraction... 100%

How do you know this?
I have a male friend at work. We spend a lot of our working day together, five days a week, so we've definitely formed a close bond. Those types of friendships are healthy. We sometimes text outside of work (tbf, normally about work stuff that we don't want to discuss around colleagues or have a paper trail of on our work email addresses). There is zero attraction. He is my friend and we have each other's backs. I'm in my notice period now but actually on AL so I have basically finished working and he still texts. He has a wife and three lovely kids who he absolutely dotes on so I know he's not remotely interested in me 'in that way'.
It really grates on me that we raise our sons and daughters to be friends with whomever they want and socialise them in mixed-gender schools and have brought our daughters up to achieve in often male-dominated environments where we hope they will make friends, ergo socialising with men, yet expect partners to refrain from this socialisation that has been absolutely fine for the vast majority of their life just because, let's face it, it's a self-esteem issue, not a partner issue.
I think if trust has gone for the OP, then marriage counselling is probably a good idea and perhaps some personal therapy to help with the evident poor self-esteem.

It’s all about boundaries. The OP has her boundary and he has broken them. That is fair. When my ex H had an affair I read just good friends. She talks about how a good marriage has a barrier round it. This barrier is different for each marriage. So I’m the post above the friendships work because the texts are purely work related. But the OPs H has broken that barrier. He is talking about his marriage to another woman. He should be talking to his wife. He goes out with fancy woman. Fine, but is then taking his wife out……no….wifey is at home doing safe wifey things whist fancy woman is all dressed up, drinking, laughing, no kids, infact it’s like the old days of dating.

we all have different barriers but if you want your relationship to survive you keep these barriers up. Don’t let anyone in.

when I guessed my ExH was having an affair I just knew. He was like a 18 year boy. All happy , mr sociable, new clothes, wanted a new car etc etc. it was obvious as he ignored me and the kids…..

God the MRA apologists are absolutely bloody everywhere. When did the bar sink so bloody low? Since when was it a self-esteem issue to say hang on a minute, I am not happy that you are spending huge chunks of time with another woman and lying to me about it?! Relationships is absolutely chock-full of women who have been on the sharp end of the "we're just friends" bollocks, only to find themselves left holding the baby - in some cases literally - when their partner decides that his friend is actually his new soul-mate.

Fine to have a friend of the opposite sex. Not fine to lie to your partner about it. Not fine to bring that person into the emotional side of your relationship and replace your partner with them. Not fine to stand by and be happy when your partner ends up on ADs because they are so anxious and worried about the impact of your "friendship".

I don't know why people keeping defending the OPs husband with examples from their own lives that aren't remotely the same.
"I have a male friend at work and there's no physical attraction.. "
"Ah, and he messages you all day every day, does he? Spends all day in the office with you, and then all evening talking to you ignoring his wife..? Lies to his wife when he goes out with you socially? Yes?"
"Well...not exactly..."

@gruffalo5 - it is clear that you are not ready to throw in the towel. You gave him a (weak) ultimatum but didn't follow through. He has made it clear that he will continue this relationship, he will continue to ignore your distress, and he will lie. So, if you stay you'll have to back off and lie low.

However, I feel you would be well advised to prepare for a possible end to your marriage. Personally I cannot see it going the distance. The seed of distrust will fester, the connection between you and him is already frayed, and the balance of power is skewed in his favour.

There is an established path of 'getting one's ducks in a row'. Take it, quietly but purposefully. Chiefly getting back to work and gaining economic independence. Saving a little here and there so you could afford legal advice if necessary. Making sure you have access to all financial documentation.

Just so you have the means and the power to walk, if it ever comes to that.

Thank you! Exactly this!
And to the poster who said it’s the ops self esteem that’s low - no not exactly, she has been ground down by her H ignoring her requests to cool things off, actively lying to her and trampling all over her feelings and then advising her to take AD because of a situation he has constructed! Honestly some of the responses on here are so dismissive it’s unbelievable!

Him lying to his wife does not mean she is attracted to him. If this ends the marriage, it's not on her like the OP suggests, but rather him. Plus, we only have the OP's side. It could be he had to lie if she is controlling. If their relationship resulted in her being on ADs, then yes, she needs therapy.

I didn't say it was on the other woman. We have no idea about her. She could, like many women do, naively believe this man is her platonic friend. She could know full well he is obsessed with her and be enjoying the attention. She might think he's a joke or a nuisance but doesn't know how to distance herself if, for example, he's senior. She could be madly in love with him. It's irrelevant. The OP is concerned about her husband's behaviour and motives and rightly so. Very few if any men would put another woman this far ahead of their wife without some sort of inappropriate feelings for her.