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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

I have no one in real life to talk about this with. Please help me to feel better about it.

283 replies

ThisIsJustShit · 13/08/2024 09:05

My daughter's dad and I separated when she was 6. He has since remarried. We've always been amicable but I've never been allowed to meet his new wife. They've been together for 10 years and married for the last 2. By all accounts, my daughter had a great relationship with her when she was younger but, in recent years, she's said she doesn't always feel welcome. I don't have an lssue her dad's wife.

He's been a reasonable dad to her during those years. But, unfortunately a bit of a (literal) Disney Dad. She knows and she can see it. She used to complain a lot that when she saw him, he wouldn't do anything with her or take her out but when he did, t was always to Disnelyland or Michelin starred restaurants so he could "put photos on facebook and look like a great dad" (her words not mine). She's never even had a bedroom at her dad's place because, despite having 3 bedrooms, they wanted a home office (fair enough) and turned the third bedroom into a 'cinema room'. She's always just slept on a sofa bed and was allowed one drawer in a chest of drawers for a small amount of clothes. No personal effects.

He used to ask why she had never taken her friends round or why they hadn't met her boyfriend and she told me it was because she had no space of her own when she was there. So this is not a man who has prioritised her over the years.

He's caused untold upset over the years by messing her about, changing goalposts, making promises he's broken, threats to withdraw financial support from her (not maintenance, he's always paid that - just things like paying for her phone) if she 'upsets' him.

Rarely there for the day to day stuff (eg lifts home from work, supporting through A Levels, parents evenings whatever) but is always good for a grand gesture.

Anyway, we come to now.

She has a good relationship with him, which is great. He's still no different though but she accepts that part of him. That's fair enough too. He's her dad And I've always encouraged it, never spoken badly of him even when she's been having a moan and I've been inwardly eye rolling at him, I've just reasured her that he loves her and it'll all blow over. Which it always has. I'm pleased they have a good relationship.

Anyway, she's currently awaiting A level results in Thursday and university is the next step.

I spoke to her this morning about results day and moving up to university, which is when she told me that her dad and his wife would be taking her up to university when she goes.

I had already discussed taking her up and the possibility of her dad and I taking her up together. But no. She's going to travel with him and his wife and I'm not included.

Tbh, it just feels like a kick in the teeth. She's left for work now and I just cried. I feel stupid. I never cry.

This is probably irrelevant but her dad can't drive anymore for health reasons and he relinquished his licence last year. To begin with, his wife did her dad's share of 'shared journeys' (picking her up from work). But then she decided she didn't want to anymore so my partner and I picked up their share have been doing them all. It just feels like her dad has no responsibility for the day to day routine stuff but when it comes to another grand gesture and a show of super parenting 'for the likes', there he is.

It just feels like all the time, effort, sacrifices I've made mean nothing. All the parenting means nothing because he's come along with another grand gesture and that's what she's gone for.

The worst part is that when I reminded her we'd already discussed going up together, she denied it and said she wanted them to take her and just smirked

I think that's what upset me the most. It's up to her who travels with her. But she'll be moving 2 and a half hours away and I'm not going to see her accommodation or settle into her new room and she doesn't even want me there. I just won't be part of it.

OP posts:
W0tnow · 14/08/2024 01:04

HoppityBun · 13/08/2024 20:18

I know someone else also told you to suck it up and don’t mention it again but whilst I think it’s important not to make an issue about it, I think you should also be careful not to give the impression that you don’t care or are indifferent. It’s not true that only her father is excited about her future and wants to support her move and it’s important that she knows that. Otherwise before you know where you are, the story will be that her father put in all the work and you weren’t interested. Let her know that you’re disappointed but don’t labour it then arrange to see her up there after a few weeks.

That was me, (suck it up) and yes, I think you’re right.

alwayslearning789 · 14/08/2024 01:33

ThisIsJustShit · 13/08/2024 11:25

I don't think she gets the significance of it, no. I think, to her, it's just a lift!

Galling when I did all the first days at school, parents evenings, playmates, wiping tears, parents evenings etc.

Daddy's going to take her but I'll bet it is you she is going to miss the most.

One thing that helped me, in a strange and therapeutic way when child left for uni, was the process of packing and going through all of the excitement of what was to come with her through the process.

Bet Dad's not going to do that - just pick up an already packed bag with the thinking job of what's important to take and carry having been done.

Enjoy the small things...as those... in the end....will be the big things that she remembers... in her quiet moments and when she has kids herself.

Sending hearts and Best Wishes 💕

aurynne · 14/08/2024 04:47

I'm going to give a different perspective here. Perhaps who takes her to uni is not such a big deal for her? OP, you seem to have made a massive thing about who is the person who takes her there, and I know that for some parents it's like a rite of passage. But for many kids it's just someone taking them somewhere, in this case somewhere new and exciting, so for them it's all about the excitement of leaving home and going somewhere else, starting a new life taking care of herself, and her head is most likely all over the place with planning, and nerves. This situation is all about HERSELF, not you, so it's just fair she thinks about herself.

This is also one of the first decisions she makes as an adult. And it's a decision about her, not about you. One decision in which she should think about herself and what she wants and prefers. And I can understand why, if her facther has not shown much interest so far, the fact he has offered would make her hapopy. So her decision has nothing to do with you, OP. It has to do with her, as it should.

Parents have children for their own selfish motives, to fulfill a yearning, to expand their genes, to have someone to love and care for. What you have done for your daughter should not turn into a burden for her to be grateful and think about you in every decision she makes. This is her triumph, her coming of age, the mark of the start of her independence. And sahe is showing you have indeed raised an independent woman who is ready to go into the world, and make decisions about who she wants to do thngs with. In this aprticular case, it won't be you.

Women have been conditioned to think about others for centuries. Why should your daughter think about you when making this decision, and not about what she prefers?

This comment is not designed to make you feel down, or irrelevamnt. It is designed so you think from your daughter's perspective. Your daughter is everything to you, but now she's an adult you won't be everything for her, and that is just the natural process and how it's meant to be.

Allthehorsesintheworld · 14/08/2024 05:21

I had the same thing happen. Dad did the big gesture of moving her to Uni but it was me slogging up the M1 after a day at work to take supplies ( he never did once and at least now there’s Amazon and supermarket deliveries) And when it all went pear shaped me who got the late night phone call and turned out to bring everything home.
It does sting.
Only thing you can do is look past it and plan a fun visit for when she’s settled in. And you can pat yourself on the back as Disneyland and posh restaurants don’t get a child through exams and into Uni, consistent parenting and hard work do.

EliflurtleAndTheInfiniteMadness · 14/08/2024 06:02

ThisIsJustShit · 13/08/2024 10:39

I agree with everything you said but I'm just not sure that this is the right time or circumstances to be doing that.

Tbh, she'd probably engage with that conversation coming from my partner more than me. She's very close to him and has a lot of respect for him.

It would upset her to hear from me that she'd hurt my feelings.

She probably sees this gesture as them making up to her all the times they haven't been involved in her day to day life.

They might not want to pick her up (as mutualy agreed) from work for 2 of the 4 shifts she works every week but they are happy to drive the 2 and a half hours to university and back (when it involves a grand gesture and SM photo opportunities).

Just to give some perspective, when they first stopped giving her lifts home from work, her dad told her to get an uber home instead and he'd pay her back for them. This went on for months. She told me one day that he'd not reimbursed her for the ubers, that what he owed her had run into £££ and that he was now saying it was too much and he wouldn't pay. So my partner stepped up and said he'd do the extra pick ups instead so she wasn't spending £10 just together home from work on her dad's life days.

That's the day to day reality of it.

My ex likes what I think of as public parenting, there for the sports matches and awards days but never the day to day slog and training. He even thinks he has more of a right to be there for those days somehow even though he put nothing into those days happening. I can see him doing this in the future. FWIW I sometimes accidentally smirk when I feel uncomfortable, it's a really bad reaction and I hate it and it doesn't mean what people think it means. It's shit, these situations are really shit and they hurt so much, but it's probably all about wanting her dads love and approval. It would be hard to feel loved when your dad has a 3 bedroom house and won't even make one room a proper room for you. That's beyond Disney dad and plain shit dad. I can see that sort of behaviour leading to desperately needing his approval though. Scarity and insecurity with his love and his financial inputs makes those things more critical in her mind. She wants to know her dad actually loves her and doesn't understand that he's actually doing this all for himself not her. I'm sorry this has happened, that she's been so hurtful, it's not fair or ok even if the psychological processes behind it are understandable.

HelenHywater · 14/08/2024 06:19

I have a similar situation with my dc @ThisIsJustShit . It often upsets me that they appear to think so highly of their dad when he does so little. Their standards for him are so low compared to what they expect of me! I haven't said anything - my hope is one day they will realise how much I have done and how little he has done (although I'm conflicted because I don't want them to be upset by him, but he really is a shit dad!) although I do realise that they don't owe me anything.

@PigeonFeatherInMyChair your perspective is really helpful.

jolene7 · 14/08/2024 06:26

I agree with the poster above that I bet it's because it will be easier for her emotionally. I balled my eyes out being dropped off at uni. I get why this feels like a kick in the teeth. Have you talked to her about how she is feeling about it, and if she will miss home etc.

Lacdulancelot · 14/08/2024 06:36

I’d let this one go @ThisIsJustShit .
However you need to be very aware that in 3 years there will be a graduation and state clearly that you intend to be there.
Her Disney dad will do his utmost to be the one in the photos.

XChrome · 14/08/2024 06:50

So what you are actually saying here is that no, in fact he isn't a decent dad. He's a crap dad. You have described a crap father.
I understand how you feel. You've done everything and these two idiots swoop in and steal the university trip away from you. What your daughter did was disrespectful and I would tell her so. She should not have denied it and smirked at you.
Here's the thing though- with the very best of intentions, you haven't been honest with her. You've not been truthful about her father and have brushed her concerns about his treatment of her aside. Is it possible she resents you doing that and is using the university trip to get a bit of revenge?
I think you should have been more supportive of her instead of telling her it would be okay. It hasn't been okay. He's continued to be a shit father. You needn't say anything insulting about him, but would it hurt you to admit that he hasn't treated her kindly or fairly?
I don't think we should be dishonest with our kids, even in the name of keeping a parental relationship. He didn't deserve a relationship with her and that's his fault. So why make that such a priority? Your daughter may feel you've prioritized it at the expense of your her well-being. Talk to her about it and above all, be honest when you speak to her and validate her conflicted feelings about her father.

XChrome · 14/08/2024 07:02

ThisIsJustShit · 13/08/2024 09:29

Danbury

No, I know. And I do get that.

But I've spent so much time smoothing things over between her and her dad.

I know him well enough to know that there will be some financial motivation for this too.

She wouldn't just be with me on our own. My partner would have come too. It's actually my partner who does most of the lifts from work in the evening because I have to work from home quite often and he has more availability. I know it's its not about the adults but he's been looking forward to taking her up and see her settled too.

I'd have been more than happy to go up with her dad. But it's the fact not even her dad hasn't even considered that I might want to be part of it.

I just think it's her parents who should be taking her as much as anything.

I'm not going to mention it again. She's made her choice.

That's part of the problem IMO. You should not have been smoothing things over for him. He should have done what he needed to do to keep a relationship with her himself. He is not your problem. You don't have any responsibility to do that sort of thing for a husband, let alone for an ex. Let them figure it out on their own and either sink or swim. Women do way too much emotional labour for men.
Your daughter is used to you doing her father's parenting for him, knows he takes advantage of you, so is it possible his attitude is rubbing off on her and she has started to be inconsiderate about your feelings?

ThisIsJustShit · 14/08/2024 08:02

Thank you so much for all the replies!

There are too many now to reply to individually but I have read them all and there is food for thought in all of them.

I've been asked a few questions, some of which I've already answered but I'll try and give the info again partly because it helps me to have organised it in my head too.

We split up in the November when she was 6. There was an annual event at Christmas we always attended as a family and I knew he'd want to do it with her so I got it booked in early so he couldn't book it first. Then I realised that I'd have been really hurt if he'd done the same to me (because that's exactly what I was trying to prevent happening).

And actually the most important thing was her and her experience. So I rang him, explained this and asked him if he'd like to come along. He did, we all went and, tbf, we had a lovely day. In the background, he irritated me 100 times and I was incredibly relieved when we got on the train without him at the end of the day! 😁 but there was no tension, we did all genuinely enjoy it. The following year, the dust had settled a bit and we each took her separately.

And that's pretty much how it was. We had a conversation after that and decided we'd always prioritise her so that she wasn't damaged any more than necessary by the break up - it wasn't her fault and neither of us ever wanted her to feel like she had to choose between us. We both still loved her. So she's never had to 'choose'. Although there will undoubtedly have been times when she felt she was doing so (eg I know she felt the fact I was alone at Christmas on the couple of occasions she's spent it with him) but I've always done my best to reduce any guilt she might have felt. Because pps are right, none of this situation is of her choice or doing.

But he is a selfish man (why we split up) and ultimately the sort of person who would do anything for anyone but only as long as it made him look good and didn't inconvenience him. Hence, her not having a bedroom at his house. Or even a proper bed. She had the use of a sofa bed that wasn't even always converted into a bed (she told me). And that has never changed.

He has always known when parents evenings were but chose not to attend. He sometimes told me that he hadn't received the emails so I forwarded mine. Still didn't show. He came to GCSE information evening though and tried telling her she couldn't do a STEM subject she'd been invited to do (it's not one general offer at her school) because it was pointless (and not for girls). She defied him, got a 9 in it and it was her best subject at A Level.

He's done similar at different points in her life for no reason other than he wants some control/input/to feel like hes 'been a parent'. Its all arbitrary just so that he has a measureable input and impact. She ignores him when he does that (after she's gone through the frustration and tears at him unnecessarily interfering and putting pointless and unnecessary obstacles in her way).

Financially, he always paid maintenance which I've probably been grateful of in light of some women's experiences. And when she was 11/12, he got her a GoHenry card that he put money onto. He rang and told me this was so that she wasn't always asking me for money because she'd started telling him about trips to theme parks and popping into Costa after school for a coffee etc that he knew he hadn't paid for and so I must have and he knew that would get expensive. But she got fed up with that because he was always notified of her spending and would question her on it (why had her bill at Costa been the value of 2 coffees and not one? Who else's coffee was he paying for - that sort of thing) and he held it over her as a constant threat, "Well perhaps I won't put money on your card this month then," type thing. So she and I opened a bank account for her instead when she was about 14/15 Because she declared that she didnt want to be linked to him financially anymore.

He offered to pay for half of her prom dress. It was after covid when she'd missed out on all the school overseas trips etc so we said she could have a nice prom dress and we'd go halves. I did the dress shopping with her and he said he'd pay half. But when it came to it, he didn't like any of the dresses she sent him photos of, there always needed to be a discussion before he'd agree, I couldn't afford to cover the whole thing. It probably doesn't sound a much but it went on for weeks. Him assuring her he'd pay but then never having quite enough money, not liking the dress etc. Constant push and pull. In the end, I bought her a dress alone that was only the value of the amount I could afford so, whilst it was lovely, it wasn't any of the ones she'd initially been led to believe she could have and it tainted her experience. Whatever people's opinion of prom and prom dresses, that's not the point, it was her experience of it because of him that mattered. It upset her so much that she didn't want to go to the year 13 prom at all.

He found messages on her phone where she was visibly upset and talking to her friends about it and offloading the way kids do. He threatened to cancel her phone contract if she was only going to use it to slag him off. He was angry and vicious in his words, she was absolutely distraught.

She was bullied at school and begged me not to tell him about it. There have been so many things over the last 4 years in particular that she's begged me not to tell him about because of her fear of his reaction. And justified given his reaction to her nose piercing.

She is exhausted by him. She is under no illusion about what he is like. When i say ive smoothed things over, i mean that ive listened, supported, consoled, and agreed with her that hes being a dick but also not joined in with criticising him and have (maybe wrongly) helped her to not make things worse. Eg if she'd been honest with him about why she wanted a bank account, he is quite likely to have said, "If you want financial emancipation from me, you've got it," and withdrawn all financial suppprt. Over the past 12 months, I've been more inclined to say, "Well, you know what your dad is like. Of course he did that. Its what he does."

As I've said, he has made promises of financial support at university in the way of cash. But the details have been changed, modified and reduced over the past few months arbitrarily and at his whim. She is in a state of constant anxiety because of his constantly shifting goalposts. It also makes her fearful of him saying, "Well, i won't give you anything then," if she brings it up or displeases him. She will be funded by student loans, the money she's saved from working and whatever contribution I can make. She intends to get a job at university. She doesn't expect any financial support from him (and neither do I).

Apparently the amount he owes her is around £800. He allowed the debt to rise and when she finally felt brave enough to ask him for it back, he told her it was too much and he wasn't going to. It seems she's just accepted that.

I've stayed single for most of her life. I refer to my partner because we are committed to each other but we don't live together because we have only been together for a couple of years. But we spend a lot of time together and she and he have a very good relationship. He steps up for lifts etc when her dad doesn't because his attitude is that, if he'd have done it for his kids, he'll do it for her.

She told me earlier this year that her dad makes her buy her stepmum a mothers day card every year. I don't have a problem with her getting her one. What I have a problem with is that it's all bound up with emotional manipulation. It's not her choice. She doesn't feel like she has a 'stepmum/daughter' relationship with her. But her dad insists because of all the things her stepmum does for her. But, if I ask her what sort of things she does with her stepmum, theres nothing, she can't think of anything beyond her being welcoming, friendly and hospitable when she stays.

It's definitely got worse since they married a couple of years ago. He won't speak to me anymore at all. We've never had a lot of contact and it's only ever been about her but it's completely stopped. Whereas we've previously always made parenting decisions together with our daughters best interest at heart (usually with some strong arguments from me) now he makes them with his wife and they are made with his wife's and his best interests at the centre, which has also caused problems.

And finally, a lot of this is compounded by the fact her dad has a couple of health conditions. They're not nice and i wouldn't want to endure some of the treatments but he really lays it on thick with her. None of the conditions prevent him from doing things he wants to do or on a day to day basis but they do flare up now and again and are unpleasant when they do. I've always been understanding of that.

But he also uses these as an excuse for a lot of things, "I'm sorry baby. Daddy couldn't do x, y, z because I've been too ill." So she feels sorry for him and gives him a lot of leeway because of it. Even when she knows about the holidays, nights out, normal life he's been leading at the same time he's claimed to be so ill he's had to let her down. The cognitive dissonance is strong.

Anyway, I'm sorry that's so long but it's helped to get it down, though, and hopefully shows that I haven't been completely wet. It's been a fine line to balance. Her dad is very volatile and she has inherited that trait. He doesn't behave like an adult towards her and engages in a battle of biggest and best and who can shout the loudest where there has to he a winner and has to be a loser. And he's a winner who's not afraid to pull put the big guns.

OP posts:
ThisIsJustShit · 14/08/2024 08:27

Hopefully, that explains (if anyone can be bothered to read such an epic post!) why I'm so reluctant to give her my emotions to deal with, too.

She's already on constant eggshells around him. She doesn't need that around me, too.

I understand what people are saying about him being a shit dad. And, tbh, he's an arsehole.

Part of the problem for me is that, she doesn't say a word to him. She won't because she's scared to and he makes her feel guilty if she's doing anything other than telling him what a wonderful daddy he is (I'm not being facetious here - he does still refer to himself as 'daddy' and she's 'Daddy's princess'). So I get it. The problem is that there's such pent up anger, frustration and injustice in her that, she lets all of that out towards/with me. It's wrong. But I'm not cruel in my words (he is) and I'm not going to punish her (he does) and those emotions do need to come out, be heard and processed.

He was no where near as bad when she was younger or before he was married. Yes, he was a dick but it was individual frustrations. There was a 'good side' too. It definitely got worse when she became a teenager and then again when he married.

I have no family - no parents, aunts or uncles etc. Until she was old enough to be left alone, for an evening, he would have her for extra contact time if I wanted to go away for a weekend or do a hobby etc. He always explained to work that he would be the one called if she was ill and needed picking up from school because I couldn't do it during term time. He wasn't a dick in that respect and I couldn't afford to rock the boat for the "less important' stuff. It undoubtedly created a power imbalance but it didn't feel like that at the time.

His (now) wife never complained either and was always supportive and accommodating even when it impacted her. But I have no doubt (now) that the narrative in their house is/was that I was an impoverished (I wasn't), lonely (I wasn't), struggling (I wasn't) single mother who was to be pitied and supported by their benevolence rather than just divorced parents who were doing their best by their child and a new partner who was mature and supportive of that, which is how I always read it.

OP posts:
ThisIsJustShit · 14/08/2024 08:49

So back to to the present.

I've pretty much made peace with the fact he'll be taking her.

It's sad because my parents were divorced and my dad was in a relationship with the OW (so it was NOT amicable at all!) but even they put their differences aside to drive me across the country to university when I went.

I would be more than happy to travel with him, see her into her new place, go for lunch, lug boxes upstairs together, get told to go now because we were embarrassing her 😁 and I guess I thought we'd have a conversation about it closer to the time.

I was that teenager in that situation too and it meant a lot to me to have both my parents there.

So the poster who said that we were unable to put our differences aside was wrong. Because, when I had the opportunity to exclude him when we first broke up, I didn't

This is all on him/them.

It stings that I think most people will wonder why I'm not going too and this will give them the chance again to be the benevolent rescuers in the eyes of others.

I do like the idea of buying her a set of weights and sending up with 8 of her (largest) cuddly toys though 👍🏻😁

I also don't imagine that they've considered the logistics of getting her stuff from my house into their car. I won't be taking the stuff to theirs (I wouldn't be allowed anyway) and it's difficult because any boundaries I assert around that will just come off as petty and obstructive.

And, finally, I think they will want her to stop at theirs the night before they go so that everything is easy and packed and they can get an early start (I would).

So I won't even be there to wave her off to university. I'll just be saying goodbye to her as she goes to her dad's the night before 😢

OP posts:
ThisIsJustShit · 14/08/2024 09:14

The worrying thing is that, despite other people's experiences of their children coming back to them in their 20s, I'm not convinced.

I've already considered what will happen at graduation - although I'm pretty sure she'll want me there for that...

But things like babies?

He has a large family, as does she. And they all like a bit of glitz and glamour. On my side of the family, well, there's me.

It'll be them organising baby showers with shiny balloons, gender reveals and confetti because they're both really into the big celebration stuff. I wouldn't because a) i don't have the family to invite, b) I've never been into the big showy celebration stuff and wouldn't have a clue where to start and c) I think it's all a bit naff! I'd have no issue with them organising stuff for.her but But I'm now realising that I wouldn't even be invited to attend, which would make them more 'entitled' than me to the benefits and her big celebrations.

I know I'm projecting and that's a long way off but this has totally rocked my understanding of how things actually are.

OP posts:
ThisIsJustShit · 14/08/2024 09:15

Anyway...

OP posts:
AlexaON · 14/08/2024 09:28

Don’t look too far into the future OP. Of course she’ll want you when babies come along. Glitzy occasions are all very well but you need your mum in a totally different way as a new mother.

TheSandgroper · 14/08/2024 09:30

Ok. I can see many of your points.

1). I think you still need to be a little less passive. DD needs to be trained that, as her mother, you deserve recognition and respect. In your projections, DD needs to be sure that, as her mother, you are included in her life. This doesn’t seem to be automatic so training needs to be done.

2). Whatever plans they make, let them make them. And, at the appointed time, hug, kiss and go out. Even if it’s just to the local park to cry your eyes out. Then, if the plans do go awry, you are simply not there to tidy it all up. And if you get the phone call to help fix it, you can be back in a or hour or so and not before. Because you are doing Other Things. Not sitting on your sofa waiting for Madam to deign to need you. See point 1.

If all goes swimmingly, take it as a bonus.

3). Can you get in first? Can you go up a week early and see what you and DD can do about jobhunting and stuff before the hordes descend? Stay at a Premier Inn or something for a couple of nights?

When I read your updates, I think you now need to start fighting your corner. No one else is going to.

ThisIsJustShit · 14/08/2024 09:49

AlexaON · 14/08/2024 09:28

Don’t look too far into the future OP. Of course she’ll want you when babies come along. Glitzy occasions are all very well but you need your mum in a totally different way as a new mother.

I don't know. I didn't have one around so I just got on with it! So I've no experience of that. I hope you're right.

TheSandgroper

Yes, I think you're right about needing to fight my corner here. I've been foolishly thinking we've just been bumbling along and seeing her dad as an incidental problem who has to be managed now and again.

But I now see that there is an underlying narrative and intention that has been underpinning it the whole time.

I don't want to sound dramatic or minimise other people's far more serious concerns but I now feel like he's been alienating her from me in my own home and I've just not seen it. Obviously, I'm also considering things that I've not mentioned on here in that.

OP posts:
ThisIsJustShit · 14/08/2024 10:09

I am going to speak to her but not in an attempt to change her mind about the journey nor to make her feel guilty.

I'm going to write down some bullet points so that it stays focused and doesn't get sidetracked by emotion - hers or mine.

My preferred outcome would be that she tells her dad she wants me and him to take her but I know that won't happen. And wouldn't be allowed to happen even if she did.

She's not stupid. She knows the truth and that's why she gets so defensive at anything she perceives as a criticism of him (even when it's not) because she knows there is plenty to criticise.

I suppose it's also why she accepts the big gestures and showy celebrations because that's her proof that he loves her. His love must feel entirely conditional to her and that's just her normal.

But I do worry that she is so conditioned to appease him that she won't assert herself with him even when she wants to and that never going to change (either the need to appease him nor his expectation of that). And that, if I'm not careful, I'll end up as the collateral damage in her life.

OP posts:
Whosawake · 14/08/2024 10:20

ThisIsJustShit · 14/08/2024 08:27

Hopefully, that explains (if anyone can be bothered to read such an epic post!) why I'm so reluctant to give her my emotions to deal with, too.

She's already on constant eggshells around him. She doesn't need that around me, too.

I understand what people are saying about him being a shit dad. And, tbh, he's an arsehole.

Part of the problem for me is that, she doesn't say a word to him. She won't because she's scared to and he makes her feel guilty if she's doing anything other than telling him what a wonderful daddy he is (I'm not being facetious here - he does still refer to himself as 'daddy' and she's 'Daddy's princess'). So I get it. The problem is that there's such pent up anger, frustration and injustice in her that, she lets all of that out towards/with me. It's wrong. But I'm not cruel in my words (he is) and I'm not going to punish her (he does) and those emotions do need to come out, be heard and processed.

He was no where near as bad when she was younger or before he was married. Yes, he was a dick but it was individual frustrations. There was a 'good side' too. It definitely got worse when she became a teenager and then again when he married.

I have no family - no parents, aunts or uncles etc. Until she was old enough to be left alone, for an evening, he would have her for extra contact time if I wanted to go away for a weekend or do a hobby etc. He always explained to work that he would be the one called if she was ill and needed picking up from school because I couldn't do it during term time. He wasn't a dick in that respect and I couldn't afford to rock the boat for the "less important' stuff. It undoubtedly created a power imbalance but it didn't feel like that at the time.

His (now) wife never complained either and was always supportive and accommodating even when it impacted her. But I have no doubt (now) that the narrative in their house is/was that I was an impoverished (I wasn't), lonely (I wasn't), struggling (I wasn't) single mother who was to be pitied and supported by their benevolence rather than just divorced parents who were doing their best by their child and a new partner who was mature and supportive of that, which is how I always read it.

I think you're epic. That's such a difficult situation and you sound like you've handled it with so much grace. You've been uber-mum and he's been shit dad and your daughter knows it, and will always know it.

Greenhedge1 · 14/08/2024 10:44

OP, it does read as if she as a child has been the victim of a controlling emotionally abusive father for many years.

There is no way that this has not damaged her.
He is a truly awful man and if this thread does nothing more than wake you up to the fact that you should NEVER defend him again, then it will definitely have served a useful purpose.

You have reassured her again and again that her father loves her?
So this is now what she thinks love can look like?
A nasty abusive controlling man?
That is not what you want for her.

I think you need to start modelling a strong woman who won't tolerate nor condone her fathers bullshit behaviour.

She is 18, an adult, and off to live at university, covering for him any longer is absolutely against her best interests going forward.

I agree with @Sand that you need to be out and unavailable if things go tits up, for an hour or so, not hanging off the phone.

There are two books that I think YOU need to read and have to hand, for her.

"Women who love too much."
"Why does he do that?".

These are books that will help you/her to understand what a fxxk up her father has been and educate her on the behaviour and signs to look out for.

It IS possible to be firm and very matter of fact, that yes, you too would have liked to bring her up to university with her father, but you accept that she is accepting of his controlling demands that you don't attend.

Tone is EVERYTHING I believe, and I think you can deliver your point of view in a very unemotional way.

The next time he fxxks up and upset her, do NOT jump in to reassure her that his shit behaviour is acceptable and he loves her.
Better to say "ah well you know at this stage what he is like, same story, different day" shrug your shoulders, very matter of fact.

I don't think your husband loves his daughter at all.
He's just another mean controlling prick that uses money to beat her/control her with.

The sooner you firmly disassociate yourself from his behaviour the better.

No more giving him the gloss of respectability and acceptability, she is an adult now and his shit behaviour is EXACTLY why you divorced him.

No woman should put up with men who behave as he does.

The future will unfold itself but in your place I would want to know that I had done my best to point my daughter in the direction of good men and not mean controlling abusive pricks like her father.

Financial abuse, coercive control are all crimes now.
He has been using financial control to coercively control his daughter over the years.

YOU need to read up on this and make the link to her at a future date, otherwise a prick like your Ex could very well end up as a son in law to you at a future date.

ThisIsJustShit · 14/08/2024 11:34

Greenhedge1

Thank you. I can feel the passion, and frustration (likely deserved!) towards me at this having been allowed to happen. I don't disagree with you at all! And, you are right, that emotional and financial abuse are the reasons we divorced.

Like I've said, when she was younger, she was less aware of it (and so was I probably to a degree). It was as she became more independent that it ramped up (predictably!)

He's always sought her pity for 'poor daddy' - pleading poverty, seeking sympathy for his health, letting her down at the last minute. But she was too young to understand and he was still her dad and they weren't significant enough issues that they couldn't be mitigated or resolved and she still loved him. Eg promising days out that never happened, gifts that came with conditions. She remembers them and she does understand. But I do understand that the emotional impact runs deeper.

You have reassured her again and again that her father loves her? So this is now what she thinks love can look like?

It was always within the context that he had made a poor choice, that, yes, he had let her down, that he was wrong to do that. But I take your point.

And, tbh, I probably didn't see it all myself. He does love her but it is conditional and has become increasingly so over the past 4 years, which is when I really started to see it.

For the past 12 months or so (possibly longer), I have leaned towards the, "He's your dad. That's what he does. You should know that by now," type response.

Questioning her spending on the GoHenry card was already underway when the nose piercing/prom dress/phone threat incidents happened. There were several weeks where she didn't see or speak to him at all and I 'validated' her through all of that. Those were pretty monumental things that happened within the same few months and she clearly 'felt' the truth at that point.

At around the same time, she and I moved house and we went shopping for new furniture and furnishings to make her new room nice. That prompted her to reflect on the fact that she'd never had a bedroom at all at his and he "didn't even love her enough" to give her a bedroom. It was very turbulent 6 months. It brought up a lot of issues for her and it looked at one point like she might not speak with him again.

But emotions settle and time heals. And, when he came along with another grand gesture, she felt thankful that he was still daddy who loved her after all.

It's just so complex.

I didnt want to be the parent who criticised the ex/her dad to her. In the midst of all of this, he was still communicative with me and I did challenge him on it. He tried the threats with me but told him I didn't need to listen to him anymore, which is why the next grand gesture appeared because he knew that too.

For about a year, she didn't stay over at his and would only visit for dinner. Now she does stay over again but it's on her terms and when it suits her. Mostly and until, of course, daddy feels sad that he hasn't seen her for a couple of weeks.

On reflection, over the past 12+ months, he's probably moved away from a control model of threat and punishment because she has a pretty well paying part tike job and the last time he used the phone contract as a threat, she just said, "OK, cancel it. I'll take my own contract out." He backed down and actually ended up getting her an upgraded iPhone contract (that she probably couldn't have afforded herself). It's just frustrating because it only ties her to him further, which she does sort of see but it was also him being nice.

And it's hard to see you're being manipulated when someone is being nice to you.

Again, sorry for such a long post but this is really making it bloody obvious to me now just how insidious his behaviour is.

OP posts:
Topseyt123 · 14/08/2024 11:57

I must second @Lacdulancelot with the point about the graduation in three (or four) years.

You do need to let it be known that you WILL be there for that and you anticipate being in the hall when she receives her degree.

Many unis have to limit the number of tickets they allow due to space available in the hall. An allowance of two tickets per student is quite a common method of doing this. Sometimes additional tickets can become available and are put into a lottery style draw which students can apply to if they would ideally like extra tickets. This is by no means a given though, and might not happen.

You and Disney Dad(sorry , yes, him) as her actual parents, should be the ones in the hall with her for the presentation if additional tickets could not be sourced. Other partners, if they are in town, can wait out in a coffee shop or somewhere until the ceremony is complete.

That is definitely something for you to bear in mind and begin, tactfully but firmly, setting out your stall on from now.

Greenhedge1 · 14/08/2024 12:23

OP, I mean absolutely no criticism of you.
I think you have done your best in very very difficult circumstances.

Your last post reads that you have already started the process of withdrawing your tolerance of his behaviour of him and that is so great for her to witness, however she trys to reframe it.

If you do say anything make it crystal clear this will not be conversation that you will have re graduation.

Rolling your eyes to heaven/shaking your head, at any negative observations she makes about him, says everything without necessarily putting her in a position to defend him.

I think that this whole episode, while painful has given you valuable space to really reflect.

You are a great mum, she is a lucky girl to have you and you should be very proud of yourself for doing your very best with a complete prick for an Ex.

Parenting is very challenging at times!

london111 · 14/08/2024 12:37

Notthatcatagain · 13/08/2024 10:09

You should tell her how much she's hurt you, she's a grown up now and doesn't get a free pass to walk all over someone's feelings. Don't make a huge deal out it, no need to fall out but tell her that you care for her very much and that you are sad to be excluded from such a big milestone. If she goes into the world think its OK not to be considerate to others she's going to have a rough time keeping friends

I agree with this. My children are younger teenagers than yours but when their actions have upset or hurt me I tell them. Not to make them feel guilty but to make them aware. Likewise, am very open to apologising when I have messed up.

I don’t agree with the advice that you should grin and bear it. Your role as a parent is not to be the full back option but to set up a relationship where you both treat each other with care and respect - that must go both ways. It does not undermine unconditional love.