August 2024 - But we took you to Stately Homes!

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007.

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwaite
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

@Wigglytuff345 , congratulations on your achievement! I too think that you should do your best to thoroughly enjoy your big day!

I could never do well enough to satisfy my mother. Getting high marks wasn't enough; I had to have done better than everyone else. If not, I'd be scorned, I don't remember the actual words she used to use, but I do remember often being reduced to tears by her negativity. But I learned not to tell her if I had any tests etc coming up, I'd only tell her afterwards if I'd come top. I remember getting a B in English O level and being derided, she was furious - despite that fact that I'd done it A YEAR EARLY and got an A in maths at the same time, also a year early, but that apparently didn't count! She was FURIOUS when I refused to apply to Oxbridge and actually didn't speak to me for 3 weeks. (How? I mean, how do you not speak to your child IN THE SAME HOUSE for weeks at a time?)

I've been told GOK how many times how "difficult" I was a teenager. But I actually did pretty well; lots of O and A levels, first in the family to go to uni in a hard-to-get-into course for a vocational profession; grade 8 music; passed my driving test; I didn't do drugs, get pregnant, get drunk (often). Realistically the "difficulty" was in our relationship, that's all.

I now have awful performance anxiety. I'm quite musical but I would never play or sing in public as I fear criticism. I've been told so many times that I could write for a living but ditto - I'd just expect negative reviews. I speak a 2nd language pretty well but get tongue tied because I expect all my errors to be jumped on. Ultimately I'd rather keep my light under a bushel than have it viciously snuffed out.

To me, the word "family" means an unhappy situation which I left as soon as I could. Thank heaven I was bright enough to leave for uni, I don't know what would have happened if I'd had to stay there - I genuinely thought of killing myself on a weekly basis as a teenager. If I say "family", in my head I never include my DD and her children in that because they are in a different bubble, quite separate from all the unpleasantness of my younger life. Does anyone else find themselves performing similar mental linguistic tricks?

I’ve been seeing my therapist on and off for around 7 years now. She has seen me throughout the difficulty with my exH.
the most valuable thing she did for me was to tell me I wasn’t going mad and my parents are mental (not in exact terms!) which helped. I just needed that validation I wasn’t the problem.
in terms of healing I found books more helpful and just self reflection. Yin yoga to release stored trauma. Lots of walking.

Sadmary you can do it don’t let the negative people put you off. I sang solo in a concert for the first time age 50 once I got over the nerves it was great give it a go x

Oh @SadMary you made me teary eyed 💐 I relate so much to what you say... I actually left my musical studies because I was terrified of performing and always thought I wasn't good enough "so what's the point". And singing... ah, I love singing! Recently I've been thinking about joining a choir!
I don't recall which one of you said this* (so many of you said things I could have written myself!), that whichever merits you had, were brushed off, like a given fact? That's exactly what I experienced: good things about myself were just assumed and or minimized. Negative or inevitable things, were seen as flaws and maximised.
I had one major literary achievement when I was very young. I never tell anyone about it even to this day. To my DM the only reason I didn't "publish books" it's because I'm lazy and unambitious: "if I had that gift of yours..." she used to say, implying my uselessness. The same with music. It's like she tainted the things I most loved to do... She of course never made an effort to understand or know the workings of my vocation. Yet she somehow claimed it for herself, if that makes sense. In my mind, of course (that's part of what I work at therapy).

*It was your post @NowImNotDoingIt :)

@SadMary I appreciate it's not my place to push meds.. however, one half tablet of the BP med propanalol is almost miraculous in helping performance anxiety. It reduces and can virtually eliminate the physical manifestations - which then gives you real confidence going forward.

It's the physical element and knowing people can see / hear it in you that makes it a million times worse. If you remove all that, it has a psychological impact. I imagine alot of people secretly do this.

Yes, I understand completely what you say about "not knowing who you are" or feeling rootless. I struggle with this myself, so I can't offer much useful advice. The only thing I can say is that you must be someone pretty impressive if you are a grandmother with a house full of life: I aspire to this!
I try to "root myself" in the present when I feel lost like that: I think about my DH and my DC and what we've achieved and try to imagine what kind of person I want to be. We still get to do that, figure out who we are and what we like, even if we didn't get to do it when it was the time.

Something really weird that is going (since mum came over) is that while I stoped pandering to her mostly and I'm just flippant , or ignore what I don't like and generally not feeding into anything, or even biting back at times, I have become quite anxious and apologetic to OH (who is amazing). I'm rather fawning over him and jumping as soon as he asks something which is quite bewildering to him.

I suspect I'm transferring my feelings of inadequacy and need to please onto him. Which means it's all still there.

@SadMaryYou sound bloody brilliant. So there.

Oh @SadMary this is heartbreaking and such a shame.

Ultimately I'd rather keep my light under a bushel

Keep it all away from your mum, but if you have people in your life that you can trust, and can be silly with and give anything a go, try to stoke that fire if you can. Little baby steps, preferably in a "fun" situation. Like going to a karaoke night and singing your heart out to your favourite song.

My saving grace was having a kid and working with kids as I can be silly and daft and try all kinds of random things . Not just that, but I feel it's very important to show kids it's ok to make mistakes, to be able to laugh at yourself a bit, to be silly, to give anything a go , that it becomes almost part of my job. I never used to do things I wasn't at least vaguely good at before this,even for fun. So never went bowling or played pool again(for example) once I figured out I was crap at it.

All of the above resonates but one of my friends said to me a while ago, you could win a nobel prize and it would be the wrong one. We can do no good because it suits their insecurities and their narrative. I went to a performing arts school for years. My parents sent me to it. I did quite well performing on a stage, I did an Irish thing where you perform a poem to an audience and get a grade. I won gold one year. Came first out of everyone. The mother touted me out to people as HER self trained miracle and then sent me on to a performing arts school. I honed my skills. I had already been in dancing and gymnastics which complimented each other, had a natural singing voice and was in a choir. I sang in school things, was lead in a few school plays. That then turned into 'oh genuine is nothing but an attention seeker - has to be always noticed, always performing'. The reality was so different. I performed on a stage as with the lights I was anonymous. I enjoyed it - I got to become a person that was not the real me. This was at amateur level for fun, I never wanted to be a performer which is just as well because I see say Megan Markle in the spotlight now and her horrible family saying things and wonder what lies my mother would have told 'the world' about me had I ever become famous.

I have never enjoyed attention, quite the opposite. While others had big 18th and 21st birthdays I chose not to and celebrated with close friends, not even family. When others had lavish weddings I had a small one - did not have a dress 'thing' I just bought mine off a rack in a highstreet store. My hen was a meal in a restaurant followed by drinks in a club. With friends. I have never liked the limelight on me. I get jittery even now walking into a place alone if I am dressed well as I dont like being looked at. I hate compliments, I hate male attention. I hate any attention and the fact I have been painted as an attention seeker feels so unfair. I have different opinions on things to my family meaning I dont 'tow the line' which my mother has told people is attention seeking and I am only saying 'the things I say' to get attention. I dont. I have never been allowed an opinion without being put down for it. I was asked about religion before. I answered honestly, raised catholic now atheist. Apparently I said that to be seen - to be the star of something. It is like my opinion because it is different needs to be mocked.

I am slowly learning a lot about myself but in the interim realising that the people that listen to her really only do it because then they are not in the firing line. They know. They have to know. They are just happy it is me that is the scapegoat not them. My mantra once again - it ran in the family until it ran into me. She can seclude me, she can be nasty about me, they all can. But they wont have access to me and sure as shit no access to my son. Your reputation is what people listen to and choose to belive but your character is who you are and the people who know you know that. That is what I want to instill into my son.
Apologies for the long post. I had a therapy session today and lots comes up in my head afterwards that I sometimes forget so sometimes better to vent on here.

thankyou for your kind words. I don't think I am.impressive at all of course (as if we are able to accept anything positive about ourselves). I just always wanted a big family and it has been incredibly important to me to achieve that.x

Hahah, I wanted to applaud you very loudly (buy my DC are sleeping😜))!
But seriously: so VERY WELL said!!

@Genuineweddingone - do we share a mother?!

Maybe we all share the same one? 🤪

@MsNeis @SadMary I think most on this thread share a mother. A mother in the proper term is a person who loves for and cares for and applaudes their child. Differing ways of doing it - some breastfeed, some bottle some both, different parenting ways etc but a mother tries their best with differences to others. A narc mother it seems to me is not different. They will be there for the good times once they can take the rewards or the applause for it somehow. Your achievements are theirs but if you achieve anything without them around or that cannot be connected to them then you are the enemy and your achievements are to be belittled. Its a strange way for the normal human to comprehend but every single time anything has happened in my life my mother needs it to centre around her even if shes nowhere around. Its strange and weird and you could feel sorry for them. I have over the years felt sorry for my mother but right now as it stands bar the one time for no reason she turned up in a local shop to me (shes a solid 40 min drive from that shop and from my home and knows nobody else up where I am and literally all we did was look at each other, I have not seen her face to face since last december. Shes still lying though. Shes telling people 'ah it will blow over, genuine will come to her senses'. For once she is right and I have. And my senses do not include talking to her again. The really are a script just like a cheating husband. Its a script they all follow and the further you dig the further you see it. It doesnt make it stop hurting or bringing up emotions but it does help you understand yourself more and I am still processing things but I will get there. We ALL will.

Jealousy , it all boils done to them being jealous of their own daughter which is a very sad state of affairs

Agreed, Shortbread49. My mother had several unfulfilled ambitions, which is presumably why she couldn't celebrate my achievements. My half sister, the scapegoat, was very close to her dad. Or she was, until NM got involved and poisoned the relationship. Pure jealousy.

My eyes were opened to my NM’s jealousy when I had my own child. She couldn’t stand that I was choosing to bring my child up differently to how she brought me and my siblings up, she would constantly remind me that I was a new mum and she “knew more than me” because she had five children. Then when I went back to work after having my daughter, kick started a new career and we started doing well for ourselves as a little family, she hated it and put me down whenever she could. I didn’t think my own mum could be jealous of me, but she is because I’ve created a life she could never have because of her toxic and narcissistic ways.

@mamaxbear yeah mine was same. I have single handedly raised my child but either she parented better or had more kids or life was harder, money was scarcer... never get a compliment on it which I didnt need i just didnt want or need the put downs. It is not about us though. It is about them. Their insecurities. I will NEVER be the mother my mam was. I am so fucking proud of that fact. I have shown her up in her own mind and heart to be the pathetic parent she was and she cannot stand it so - im the villian but you know what? With years, with therapy, with opening my eyes and mind and SEEING her vile behaviour I am giving my child the best childhood. I am in therapy because I want to make sure I dont do to him what she has done to us. i admit and acknowledge if and when I am wrong. That in itself annoys her. She sees that as weak. Again I have not had to look at her, talk to her, nothing in months and it is getting easier. I have had very dwindled down messages from her flying monkeys. Yes I have days I am weak and cry and wish I had a better childhood/mother/support/love but I dont. Im 47 and all i can do is love my one child and show him a different experience. And I am.

Sorry i do sound a bit 'up my own arse' this evening but there are days of clarity for me and days i know cutting out them is for the best. I have had decades of pain and repressed memories and emotions and I have always been 'wrong'. This thread gives me an outlet to explain myself but not in the usual defence mode way and it has been freeing. Its been strengthening. Being weak inside ourselves is because of how we were raised and we deserve to be applauded. Always did but especially now we have gone through this too. I love the support here. I am so grateful for it. x

@flapjackfairy don’t have wisdom but I can definitely relate to what you have said about identity.
Having only just realised how much my identity has been intertwined within my trauma and dysfunctional family, I am now thinking “who actually am I?”

I’ve been using the saying ‘what I’ve been through made me who I am today’ yet I want rid of all the negativity that I have been carrying around with me and the negative views of myself they convinced me were true but was only to make themselves feel better.

Especially seeing a diff side of my mum now, I always thought she did her best and that we were close but since unpacking it’s clear she did her best for herself and never us kids or me, I used to hang onto her and my siblings every word and felt they gave me a fresh perspective on my life and what to do better, I would agree with them about my shortcomings and how I needed to look at things differently. No wonder I have low self esteem! I now know that my mum checked out of my well being a long time ago, (I just didn’t realise!) and my siblings enjoyed mocking and putting me down, so now that has changed my whole outlook on the world and how I see myself.

I am waiting for therapy so I am hoping this will help me unpack this along with my 1,000s of notes from various self help books, podcasts and of course this thread.

@CreatingHavoc I realise that I have this fear of regret of fucking things up because I did the wrong thing. There have been so many instances when I remember my mum saying ‘oh why did you do that’ or ‘you shouldn’t have done it’ or ‘you made your decision now you’ve got to live with it’ and I find these voices come up at literally every decision I make and it fucking paralyses me sometimes. I remember I’d lost my keys one day, I was gutted and so annoyed at myself, I spoke to my mum mentioned that I may have thrown it in a bin by mistake and she totally convinced me that I did, it was like I was having an out of body experience because though that was just one of several ways I could have misplaced them, this was the only one where it was something that I had done by mistake, and she held on to that and was so sure it’s what I did, she convinced me, even when I tried to explain that actually it wasn’t possible she wasn’t having any of it, I ended the call even more angry and pissed at myself. Then a couple days later they turned up, obviously found by someone local and left close to my house, so I was right that the bin explanation was not the case, but she’d totally gaslit me. One of several instances of course.

Well done @Wigglytuff345 you should be so super proud of yourself, such an amazing achievement.

@Supamum3 thank you. Still feels a bit surreal I did it to be honest 😅

I know the process is frustrating, but it sounds like you have a lot of self awareness and that really is half the battle - noticing the thoughts and the patterns.

this might sound like a really weird suggestion, but I also found keeping a video diary for myself pretty much as helpful as therapy. It feels weird at first, but speaking things out loud helped, and I was able to look back and view things differently.

and just have to hope no one gets hold of my phone!

@Genuineweddingone I feel like we are in similar situations - I have only been NC since April, aside from the volatile messages she’s sent me and I’ve stupidly responded. It’s hard not to when she’s attacking me, my family and my character. But I’ve made a vow to myself to not respond to anything further, because NMs feed off that. I’m glad you feel confident and I’m glad this thread allows you to express yourself! You are not up your own arse, you’re seeing your value and worth now you’ve not got that toxic influence in your life. Good for you. Can I ask what therapy you’re accessing? I’ve just had an initial app for NHS talking therapies this week and they’ve recommended 1:1 therapy and CBT sessions, but there is a 10 week wait. I’m considering going private to be honest.

I'm still trying to make sense of this hot and cold behaviour by my mother. I think that if I had to share something or wanted to talk she wasn't interested, but she did enjoy trying to extract things out of me I didn't want to talk about in that moment or at all. It's just another case of 'im not giving you what you need'. Like I wanted to talk or do something so she would make a point not to so that she has the final say in what's going to happen. Then I didn't want to talk or do something and she would push me to, not respecting my boundaries. It's very confusing.

In a weird way I find that she studies people by following their every word or move with her eyes. I have come across the term 'narcissistic stare' and think it fits. Always staring at me, and then saying she isn't when I call her out and say it makes me uncomfortable. Or suggesting I shouldn't be so difficult as there is nothing wrong with looking and she can look wherever she wants.

To this day I feel I'm being watched constantly even when nobody is there. I feel like someone is always behind me watching and judging me.

I go private as I am not even sure here in Ireland there are public services and if there are I would be in my grave before I would get on a list lol I love my therapist though.