August 2024 - But we took you to Stately Homes!

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007.

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwaite
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

Wigglytuff

Its not you, its your mother. People like your mother as well try and use flying monkeys (often easily manipulated friends and family) to do their bidding for them. Flying monkeys like your mother also do not have your best interests at heart either so their opinion should be ignored.

Your mother tries to put her words into other people's mouths even if in the case of your housemate, its not true. She does not want to see you doing well in life. Drop the rope entirely here re your mother along with any and all hope that your mother will change and say sorry because she will not. Its not your fault she is like this and you did not make her that way.

@msneis. That was an interesting read, thank you. I have always felt my parents weren't interested in me. If I expressed interest in taking up a hobby as a child I was ignored. They didn't even respond to me. They weren't interested in my school, only that I had good grades. There werent interested in my uni or later work. They were never interested in me as a person. I somehow just served as a platform they could project their shit on.

And yet in other ways I have found them suffocating. When I started uni they made a big hooha about being worried about me. What it meant was that they worried I somehow get kidnapped or killed on my train journey or on the 2 minute walk between train and my student accommodation. So I spent decades feeling responsible for their irrational fear and I checked in with them as soon as I got home from a visit.

Later I moved countries, which they never got over and I don't understand why. They said several times they wished I would come back, but I don't understand what for as they aren't interested in my life and treated me badly. I think they spent many years hoping it's just a phase and that I would get homesick, but then I bought a home, got a pet etc. and at every step I could tell they were crushed. At one point I had a major work crisis, where I burnt out and got signed off sick, and they suggested I leave my life and move back to them!!! They really suggested I give up my home, my friends, any hope of finding another job and move back to them. It did open my eyes a bit as I think it was a selfish suggestion and they did not actually support me getting back on my feet and live independently. They just want me close by for whatever reason.

My theory now is that with me moving away and staying way..that on some level they know they fucked up and if I moved back it means they'd never have to think about this again and could remain in denial forever. They are in total denial but sometimes I cannot help but think that something is nagging at them subconciously.

They have this idea that no matter what you need to talk on the phone at least once a week. So they tried to keep this up, but I pulled away and all of a sudden they are devastated. 'You can't do this to us.' and 'after everything we have done for you all these years'. They said this in Jan 2023.

It's honestly mind blowing.

@Twatalert And yet in other ways I have found them suffocating. When I started uni they made a big hooha about being worried about me. What it meant was that they worried I somehow get kidnapped or killed on my train journey or on the 2 minute walk between train and my student accommodation. So I spent decades feeling responsible for their irrational fear and I checked in with them as soon as I got home from a visit.

this is so interesting. My parents were always very concerned and OTT when it came to physical health. To the point of ringing A+E to speak to the doctor concerned they weren’t treating me correctly (I had severe anxiety induced chest pain and bradycardia)

and then, bizarrely, actively encouraged me doing sex work where I could have been killed during any given booking. Because, money…!

it really messes with my head. Thanks for sharing this, it so often feels it has to be one thing or the other and it’s never like that. The inconsistency is wild.

Oh my... I could have written this myself! The combination of negelctful and engulfing/controlling... I've always felt the same responsibility ("don't upset mum, don't get killed in a random freak accident out of your control"... how can anyone live like this??).

Thank you for sharing

Yess the inconsistency! It's one of my unhealthy obssessions as a mother myself, after spending my life tying to make sense of it...

I also keep waiting for the moment I will miss them but it’s been two months and it hasn’t happened yet, no urge to reach out, no sentimentality, nothing.

I guess that is also a sign in itself.

@Wigglytuff345I got one visit as a student, while I lost count of how often they saw Golden Child (we went to uni in the same city, though at different times, so same amount of travel). They did come to my graduation and do you know, I don't have a single photo from that day. Not even a professional one of just me. I hope you do attend your graduation, you've worked really hard and deserve to celebrate it!

It’s quite a shock to realise neither of your parents care for you or are interested I’ve always hoped that one day I would be proved wrong about it unfortunately not and I am now over 50. I had a mother who looks at me as though she hates me and if she can’t criticise me try’s to sabotage me ( she sabotaged my education at 3 important times ) I always thought my dad didn’t know (she was clever to behave in front of him ) but then realised he did and he was worse for letting her behave like that and not supporting his children. I can’t imagine ever treating my children like that . They are now old and I’ll buy no longer speak to me or their only children because I had the audacity to stand up for my self and point out my mothers rude comments “what do you think you are playing at upsetting your mother” well the fact that she has been horrible to be for over 45 years and upset me all that time is irrelevant

i don't know how to highlight bits so sorry for posting whole thing but I wanted to say that I so relate to the point you made about only existing in relation to your parents ! My father died 6 yrs ago , my mother has become increasingly disinterested ( she is old now so that's part of it I guess though lots of other issues going on ) and my relationship.with my sister ( which was somewhat toxic and mega draining ) has fallen apart as she has dropped me in favour of my mother. Even though she is a v difficult person and in many ways I am better off without her she was my ally in the family who validated the way I felt about our upbringing .
So in a nutshell I feel like I have lost my whole extended family as I am no longer close to any of my siblings.
I find it hard to put into words the effect it has had on me. I feel like I have no idea of who I truly am any more and I feel somewhat lost and v isolated. looking at it logically it makes no sense as I am a nearly 60 Yr old grandmother with 5 ( mostly ) adult children and my house is still full of noise and life. I have been married over 35 yrs and haven't lived near my parents or siblings my whole married life but in my mind it is as if I am stuck in my childhood family and as I see that disappearing around me I feel I have no roots .
I am realising that my identity has been built around pleasing them and trying to make them proud of me for so long that now I don't even really know who.i am or where I fit in to the world aside from that. It is really hard to explain it clearly but can anyone else relate or have any words of wisdom ? I feel so down with it all.

Did anyone else grow up with a 'you can't do that' or a 'you're not clever/hard working/determined enough for that' mentality from their mother? I am finding it really hard to shake this 'I am not good enough' mentality even after over a year of therapy. I got good grades at school, college and uni. Not amazing grades but good enough. However, 20 years later, I'm still unsuccessful in any career, I try and further my education with courses that I never complete or I do complete them and then convince myself I'm not good enough to apply for any jobs in the area. I now have a chronic illness that I'm pretty certain my childhood trauma has contributed to and also have a teen with SEND so it's even harder to get some sort of a career started. I feel really down about this. Does anyone have any advice about getting past this? I'm 40 soon and feeling very much like a failure, as I have always been made to feel as such by my mother.

Yes. Not that I'm not clever enough, but too lazy, too flighty, too unambitious etc. So every "failure" was seen as lack of will because of course I was smart enough to, just simply didn't work hard enough. Eventually, that became a self fulfilling prophecy because what was the point in trying? Oh, the irony.
I remember coming home happy I got a 10(grew up in a country with grades) and the first reply would be "in what? Music? PE?" . No mum, it was maths , it was always fucking maths . The smart was just a stick to beat me with/an impossible standard to hold me up to. She never believed I ACTUALLY was.

I remember ringing her with my baccalaureate results (9.10 average) and she refused to accept and believed it so made me go check the list again and still didn't believe it until she saw for herself.

I was also too fat for pretty clothes, or going to events , or again, ironically for various physical activities I wanted to try. So I wasn't ever allowed to have or ride a bike, or roller blades or tennis or ice skating. Comments like you'll break the ice/the bike, you're too uncoordinated etc. Managed to convince her to let me try a martial arts class (I was sooo happy) , but on the second session I forgot to do one piece of homework (I was responsible for everything myself at 8) , so as a punishment I wasn't allowed to go again since i obviously couldn't manage my time/organise myself.

I was never good enough... like I said too fat, too lazy, too flighty, too crazy, too impulsive, too tomboyish, too loud, too introverted, too extroverted, too everything and not enough everything else. I always joke that I'm still not my mother's favourite kid (that's my cousin), despite being an only child.

I'm in a very low paid ,so called crappy job for various reasons, but the main one is that I'm really, really good at it and there are no doubts and the negative voices get shut down by tangible and visible results and relationships. My self esteem and confidence have grown so much over the years that I'm slowly moving from "good enough" (something I've never been to my mother) to actually "pretty great". It's a process.

Apologies again for the brain dump. 3 more days to go...

Yes I got best o level grades in my year and was not happy (especially as I am
more academic then my brothers ) I got told I was leaving school and going to secretarial college (late 80s) , I was t allowed to have an opinion, I told my teachers who laughed at that idea and asked why, I said no got ignored for a week and she has taken no interest in my education. Or jobs ever since

Was I told I wasn't enough? Probably, I can't recall any specific examples, though I do get a lot of imposter syndrome. What I do remember is having an absolute terror of failure instilled in me which has stopped me trying all sorts of things which I might have enjoyed. And a subtle disapproval of my choices, which made me reconsider and do something else instead.

@Wigglytuff345 it is better they don't go to your graduation, yes it's hurtful but if they behave badly, embarrass you, spoil the day, you will not have good memories, hurt fades x
I also cut people out my life, I had a big clear out in my early 30's and now any friendships that are not healthy, equal or attention seeking behavior [reminds me of mum] triggers me and I'm off. A really lovely friends husband is coercive, he insists on being included and he has recently prevented her from seeing me without him. I just don't have the energy for it, shame as I will miss her. I no longer stress about stuff like that, it is what it is. It's not being sensitive it is being triggered and recognizing that something is off, always trust your gut.

@CreatingHavoc I'd go back into therapy.

I've seen my counsellor on and off ( mostly on) for the last 10 plus years. I don't think I'd have ever realised what was going on if it weren't for her.

I too have a SEN child and I now have multiple autoimmune conditions. I'm so unwell I can no longer really care for my son and he's no longer in my care but with his father and family there.

I honestly wonder if there's a formula to all this ( narc family + SEN child = chronic Illness.

I keep seeing it time and time again the more I connect with people online.

@binkie163 thank you - honestly if it were just a graduation I wouldn’t go, but to be called to the Bar you have to physically be there. I don’t want them there, but just not sure whether to find someone else willing to go with me or to just go alone.

No don’t let them go to your graduation go with a friend mine didn’t come to mine at the time I was upset now I am relieved as it would have spoiled the day

@Wigglytuff345 yes sorry, rather more spiffy than graduation tbh fuck your parents, fuck friends, go on your own and enjoy it, it's such a huge achievement. I bet there will be others on their own. The secrecy and shame around toxic families means we don't realize how common it is, even families I think are normal often turn out to be hiding even worse shit!
Buy yourself something that you will treasure as a reminder xx
Did anyone see the video of an otter saved from fishing net? She came back and gave the fisherman a pebble to say thank you, it was obviously precious to her. Most beautiful thing I've seen this week 💓 and reminds me how shit my family are 🙃

@CreatingHavoc Oh yes. My parents never trusted me to do anything right at home and micromanaged me. And somehow I was supposed to be smart enough to read my mothers mind and know what she wanted, how and when. But it was always wrong anyway. I was also to only bring home As and Bs from school, but without any support.

Make sense of it!

I know now of course that it had nothing to do with me, but I still carry this belief that I am not capable. It would be for simple things like booking a flight and then wondering 'what if I booked the wrong date'. Or that I cannot assemble furniture. I have this constant dread in me before doing anything because I think that I probably cannot do it etc.

The irony is that I am the only one in this and the extended family to have done her A levels and to have gone to university, then emigrate and own property, have investments and be quite comfortable financially. I am also the only one breaking the cycle and doing therapy. But it never meant that they treat me as a capable human being. I remember the time my mother supervised me warming up leftovers for my niece in the microwave.

I saw this video and it was so cute 🥰

@Wigglytuff345 it's a huge achievement, please don't let them spoil it! Personally, I would take as a celebration of yourself: you don't go alone, you go with yourself!
If you want, tell us the date and we'll send you nice energy 🥰💐

It seems to be a common theme then! I wonder if I will ever overcome the self doubt. I'm still in therapy but it's low cost with a newly qualified therapist. I wonder if I might have to shell out for someone more experienced to help me move past it all.

@MsNeis thank you that’s really kind ☺️

@CreatingHavoc someone specialising in childhood trauma is best I find. Agree there needs to be some experience working with it too. I know they are qualified etc but I think you get better at any job over time.

@CreatingHavoc the person you see is so important. My counsellor is an older lady - a surrogate mum in a therapy perspective I guess.
Her life experience and her years of dealing with multiple clients has been invaluable.
I would never want anyone newly qualified ever. You can teach yourself most of that from a book.

I'd definitely look into other people, older ladies for example may be much better. Have a good look at their write ups.

I don't buy into this '12 sessions and you're cured' stuff. I saw one different counsellor intermittently who actually made me feel worse.