August 2024 - But we took you to Stately Homes!

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007.

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwaite
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

You've just described my DM. I amazed by the sameness... I guess I have to come to terms, after all my life feeling like an alien, that my exoerience was more common that I never would've thought... And that my DM was, as someone has posted, "following a script".
Regarding the stare you mention, I still remember the day my therapist asked me about my DM eyes, how they made me feel... I thought that my therapist was some kind of witch tbh! How could she know? Well... there you go!

@MsNeis I shuddered at the image of my mother's eyes in my head just now. She used her face to intimidate me and for many years I had no idea that this isn't normal. I think this is why I constantly screen peoples' faces for signs, like I am still looking for 'guidance' there.

Yes they follow a script. I'm starting to realise that my therapist knows a lot more than I have told her because she knows what kind of person I dealt with. For a long time I thought I need to describe to her what happened exactly so she could understand and believe me. Only realising now that she already knows lol.

@Twatalert you talk about feeling constantly watched and I definitely felt that troughout my life: it's like an extreme self consciousness that you have to mindfully adress if you want to turn off. I'm just now starting to feel I have some kind of control over it (the awful voice in my head goes in tandem): verbalizing it (to my DH, for example) makes such a difference!
I had the same experience with my therapist. It's so incredible not being me who has to do the explaining...

I think this ties in with my fear that if I think something bad somehow my family will be able to read my mind and know everything I am thinking about them. I know it isn't true of course but it still worries me and adds to my guilt.

Feels like a tricky time, especially on Mumsnet. Lots of parents nervously waiting for their children's A Level results and (according to their posts at least) offer celebration, support and/or practical help.

I didn't do very well in my A Levels, funnily enough and I clearly remember being berated for being such a failure (ha! Maybe I do remember specific examples!) When they got back from the holiday I wasn't welcome on, of course. Just feeling a bit... Sad about it all really.

I have received a text message from an aunt to tell me that my DM has died. She was terminally ill and it was expected. I feel numb, a bit shocked that no phone call but maybe I don’t deserve that.

DM lives in another country from me and this particular aunt, who also lives in a different country from DM, told me last week that she wasn’t going to fly to see her due to a rift between them, but all the text says is “With your DM, she has just passed. We have been with her.”

I’m not sure if that’s a statement of fact, or a jab at me. Just waiting for all the vitriol to start towards me for not flying to see her before she dies.

@Airworld best wishes to you in this difficult time: may you find shelter from it all 🙏💐

@Frontroomroomjungle it's difficult, isn't it? I find some threads here very triggering too (I hate that word because now it's like a fashionable word, but well, it means what it mesns). Hang in there 💐

@flapjackfairy what you described here made me think of the times I've joked with my therapist about me thinking that my mum can hear us as we speak about her! It's a very uncanny feeling, I totally get what you mean.

@Airworld I'm sorry her passing is bringing all this up for you. It really is difficult, especially as you know certain people don't just make innocent comments but are being passive aggressive. I hope they leave you alone. 🌻

@Airworld so sad for you. I am sure like a lot of us you grieved the loss of the mum you never had when she was alive too but of course now you have the real grief to deal with too. Unless people have been the target they will never understand and even if they have been targetted they will have glossed over it all like all of us at one point or another but when we go nc it is because we have had enough. Others wont have seen it that way and they will have their own judgements. Everyone on this thread will understand though if that helps you at all.

Will be thinking of you.

@Airworld bless you. We all understand how awful it is when people just cannot understand what you've endured.

If anything is said to you, you can only protect yourself by being as neutral as possible. Eg ...

' Yes it's really sad we hadn't spoken '.
' Yes I really feel for how mum must have felt being unwell '.
' Yes it's such a shame things couldn't have been different.'

And then change the subject. They will never understand. They will never see your side. Anytgibg you say about what you endured will not be heard, believed or accepted I imagine.

Everyone here is with you in our thoughts, our understanding and our empathy for what this has caused for you and how troubling and confused this news must be for you ❤️

@Frontroomroomjungle - I hear you. I find results day difficult every year for very similar reasons.

@Airworld wishing you strength x

I would love your advice guys -

Parent and sibling are narc. Have had NC with sibling for 6 months. Parent is having BBQ and am going with my child. Siblings kids also going.

I have severe health issue which makes this incredibly difficult. It's likely there will be multiple criticisms in ' joke' form. I'll have no backup and will have to weather this.

Things like ' oh make sure not to upset pantaloon as she'll flip out' etc etc.

I have no strength or confidence due to my various ailments to challenge this. But saying absolutely nothing feels wrong. I'm going to stay for the absolute minimum.

I feel like I will have to be as polite as possible to sibling but there's a history of being a severe bully my entire life. This NContact is the first time in my life I've decided no more. There's no risk of me ever going back or getting sucked in.

I don't know how to navigate this. Going to be painful on every level.

Any tips on how to manage the insults that will probably come from both with a tag team I imagine.

Why do you have to go?

@Wigglytuff345 I know that's an excellent question.

Parent lives a few doors away! It will be impossible to keep my child away when he hears them all in the garden! This sort of event is rare. I feel I absolutely have to weather this but I have explained to child ( pre teen) that we won't stay long.

Child is fully aware of the sibling issue

@Pantaloons99 Could you go out for the day instead? So your child is unaware there’s a BBQ.
It must be very hard for you living so close to them.

@BornIntoHell that's what I usually do - but I just knew it would be virtually impossible to keep him out and away all day. My health issues are very severe.

He knows now and really wants to see his cousins.

My aim is to stay the absolute minimum and then take my son with me somewhere. We've kind of done it then without hiding away in the house or having to stay out for hours hoping to dodge them

I can tell from your replies this is going to be hideous

I only have my son a few days a fortnight btw now due to my health! Just as it sounds like I'd be neglectful based on health issues 😊

I'm sorry @Pantaloons99 it's a difficult situation for sure.
I was going to say what @BornIntoHell has proposed: if there's any chance that you be "busy outside home" that particular day, I would follow that strategy.
But if, on the contrary, you are going and there's no escape option, then:

• can you think of someone there to whom you can "attach" yourself to make small chat and help you ignore the bullies?
• Do you think you can divert the attention from yourself to some topic of conversation that keeps them going? (Something trivial but engaging, that fuels their outrage maybe so that they can have their agression channeled?)
• Can you think of possible comebacks that deescalate the attack and help to change the subject?

In my experience, indifference is the most effective enemy of the bully. Do you think it applies to your situation?

@Pantaloons99I only asked as obviously the more you can protect yourself from these situations the better.

in terms of handling the insults, I think the fact you’re expecting them will help in itself. If you can just observe and make note and not take anything to heart, you will get through it. Tell yourself it’s just predictable, and boring. Don’t internalise it.

Try to stay with someone who will be on your side / moral support? Less likely to insult you in front of others as it makes them look bad.

have something nice planned to look forward to afterwards.

Thanks all. There's no one. The kids have been turned into flying monkeys and the last time I saw sibling it was very apparent to me. I'm really going to have to front it out.

I really don't have any nice feeling at all anymore and see it for what it is so won't be shocked or hurt. I'm more concerned about losing face and self respect by being sat there and ganged up on with ' jokes'.

It's more about the fact I'm probably going to be totally ignored at some point which will be really awkward.

I also think - is it right to say absolutely nothing when insults are thrown? I can't pull anyone up on it, it won't go well.

God I don't want to do this.

My child has a history of not listening either when I say we need to go now ( Neurodivergent).

@MsNeis I have in the past just pretended I didn't even hear the older sibling when something was said. Just saying, ah excuse me guys, just need to pop to the ladies. Or laugh along - yeah I've definitely got the family temper, ' and laugh.

@Pantaloons99 I heard that if someone makes a joke that isn't one or an insult you repeat it back to them as a question or a statement/observation and this makes it awkward for them.

Or ask them to repeat what they just said.

Apparently it highlights to everyone, including themselves, how unreasonable it was what they just said.

@Twatalert yes I like that. I can go with ' ah say that again, sorry my hearings really bad in one ear at the moment' 🤞

I will have to rinse and repeat!

I'm going to go in being polite and pleasant and warm. Thats the best I can do.

Thanks so much guys ❤️