August 2024 - But we took you to Stately Homes!

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007.

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwaite
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

She refuses to be in a photo with me or taken by me even if it’s say her and the grandkids, she will duck, tut, run off. Do you think she absolutely despises me? She is like this with no one else.

Well...she sounds like a despicable person herself, so if she's projected all her own flaws onto you...then quite possibly?

I find myself making excuses still
She had a difficult childhood and probably did the best she could or didn't know any better
It's exhausting to try and rationalise it.
I also had some really good times with them so that makes it harder I think
What's funny is they tell everyone that I'm so hard and don't get bothered by anything but I'm not like that at all, no-one else in my life would describe me like that
It's the act i put on to protect myself
What a bloody mess

RokaRokaRoka, I’ve been there, probably all of us here have! when you have your own children, you compare it to what you had. When they become teenagers and young adults, there’s another phase and you start questioning how you were treated at their age, etc. It never ends.
As a child I used to pray for my mum to be happy, then for my parents to get divorced. Then I became an atheist and just fantasised about leaving, which I did as soon as I could. I had children and the process started as you described.
I have learned about parentification, the Karpmann triangle, narcissism and codependency, and those concepts are really useful to start with. Good luck!

I grew up hearing ‘but your dad loves you, really, in his own way, but he doesn’t show it’, etc. from my mum and other family members (flying monkeys). It completely skewed my concept of love and relationships, led me to tolerate unacceptable behaviour in relationships, and to see those relationships as power struggles, where people have to fight for power. It has taken decades to realise it all comes from my toxic family.

This is sad and it splits my heart. I loved my dad dearly, sadly he has passed now. But Ive recently come to understand he enabled my mum with your same sentence “your mum loves you really in her way”. Or “it’s just your mum you know what she’s like” etc. This just isn’t good enough. Her way absolutely obliterated my self esteem and ruined my whole life. Marrying a narcissist, having a child to co-parent with this ass. That comment I hear often now. Yes she helps me now and I really appreciate her help and she is a great nanny but as a mother to me as a child she was awful. I have conflicting emotions now of my dear dad. Even he spent more time at my house as an adult escaping her, he’d bring his lunch along.

I can totally relate to enabling a family member we all knew dsis was crap with money and yes we all enabled her we all lent her money especially dm over the years it did cause family problems occasionally but we just rolled our eyes and said it was who she was maybe if we had stood up to her years ago we wouldn't be in this mess now

I am starting counselling soon to help me process my feelings and my intrusive thoughts I have no idea if i will even be told if dm dies or get to say goodbye to her I have developed anxiety of money when we are fine didn't depend on getting inheritance for our financial future but it scares me to unpick behaviours from dsis put me downs in front of my dc controlling and manipulating behaviour to me and them that we brushed aside as her wanting the best for them they are both adults now want nothing to do with her but it's going to be difficult

@Spendysis
I hear you. I truly do. My biggest issues are with my sister who has been awkward all her life. We were always told she had problems and couldn't help.it so no one ever challenged her on anything. She was a terrible mother and both her adult children have struggled massively. One disappeared years ago and the other keeps v minimal contact. I am v close to her and have helped her process it all having now been cast out onto the darkness myself since my father died and she now has my mum. I am surplus to requirements and v much on the outside now of my extended family. The hurt has been v hard to bear . I am sorry you are also enduring a similar situation.
I also struggle with my guilt because there has been no.falling out or anything, merely a freezing out because at present I serve no useful.purpose( .I have finally accepted that she is incapable of caring about anyone but herself. ) That will all change when my mother has gone and she will then expect to pick.up where she left off no doubt. I dread that most of all tbh.
I really don't know how these kind of people have the audacity .They have no self awareness or feelings of guilt or accountability Your sister has behaved appallingly and it is worse because she has isolated you from your mother so it is double the hurt. I so understand if it helps and I hope counselling helps you unpick.your feelings and come to terms with it all. x

Where to start looking for counselling?
I don't think I want to unpick the past as such , I can't actually remember much about my childhood.
I want to know how to help me deal with how I feel now and to understand why I'm feeling the way I do and how to help myself

@RokaRokaRoka
I just googled local counsellors in my area and a local lady came up I messaged her and at first she didn't have any availability but now she does so i need to arrange a session

When looking I would check they have the relevant qualifications as these days you can do an online course and become a counsellor. Dsis did one apparently much to the annoyance of dd who at the time was doing a degree in psychology with the idea of wanting to become a counsellor

I have no experience of counselling so don't know what to expect but i to want help to process what is going on now and my feelings regarding it so no idea if they will look into the past

@RokaRokaRoka you can find them here:

https://www.counselling-directory.org.uk/

A decent counsellor will only explore with you what you are ready to explore. But I also need to say that I believe we need to process our childhoods and integrate it so to speak to be able to make some changes.

Like you I didn't remember my childhood. I knew it was awful and I still suffered a great deal as an adult, but I didn't know how I felt as a child because I wasn't allowed to feel and express how I feel. It all came out in adulthood in many different ways (panic attacks, eating disorder etc), but I had to explore and process my childhood in order for these things to ease or go away. It's scary as hell, but you only need to do what you are ready for at any point in time.

When I last started therapy over a year ago I told my therapist I only need bi weekly sessions as I didn't feel there was that much to do. I laugh about this now. I was in denial it was unreal.

I'm scared of opening a can of worms to be honest
Thank you for the link

Is anyone there for a hand hold? I've just got so overwhelmed I text my mum and told her I needed space and then blocked her.

I feel sick to my stomach now and I'm worried I've done the wrong thing.

@Thatsajokeright
I am here. sending a handhold.

You need to.trust yourself here. It is so easy to gaslight yourself and get quickly overwhelmed by guilt and fear but you wouldn't have made such a drastic move lightly and without a lot of thought and consideration .
Trust your decision and keep posting on here if it helps. There are lots of people who understand and will be supportive xxx

@Thatsajokeright I am here giving you a handhold.

@Thatsajokeright We have to do what we need to do in order to survive. It feels so alien because it’s not something under normal circumstances we want to do. No one decent wants to cut ties with parents or leave abusive husbands. It is such a difficult burden to carry but what’s the alternative, we are built to survive. If only we were built to stop feeling so bloody guilty for the choices others have forced us to make. I don’t take my own advice very well but that feeling of needing to take action that niggles away and we try to ignore it that’s our survival instinct. We’ve quietened it for so long it’s hard to trust we hear it but it there. We must have sensed that we are threatened.

I think I've had enough of my sister.

It's always been a difficult relationship (from my point of view) because she is a bit of a narc. She can be highly critical yet cannot take any back.
She was especially difficult when our father was dying, although she has a completely different story. She was so horrendous that I kicked her out (she had moved in temporarily to 'help' with DF)

There's is so much more to the story but it's so complex - I have posted on here a number of times about it for those that remember. I had a father who lived abroad, him and my sister moved in with me, I kicked her out & cared for him entirely alone while working & taking care of DD.

The other day, she pissed me off a lot on the phone. I text her saying she was very self centred. Since then she has given me the silent treatment. We finally spoke today & she's suddenly decided to move 4 hours away for a job she applied for. Last week she was planning on settling in the town me & DD live in. She normally lets me know when she has a day off & we try to hang out on days we don't have work. But she was off all weekend and didn't mention it - this is not like her at all.

This is just one example of a million. She was also extremely off with me on the phone. I personally don't care if she moves away, my life would be a lot more peaceful as she seems to always have so much drama going on & she is very exhausting to be around.

Don't get me wrong she can be very generous with birthdays and presents etc, she's always gone over and above when it comes to celebrations. She has surprised me with a couple of holidays in the past, which is why i feel horrible feeling like this toward her.

I love her, she's my little sister. But she has a side to her that I absolutely detest.

I feel like she's punishing me for one tiny criticism, if I had given her the silent treatment & moved away every time she upset me I may as well live in a camper van.

I think it's a manipulative move & im sick of it.

@Thatsajokeright well done on putting yourself first. It takes huge courage to try even though you may not feel like it. It's totally normal for anxiety etc to spike after such a move.

You don't have to do anything right now. You don't need to figure out if it was right or wrong. All you do for the rest of the day is to try and look after yourself. Clearly the relationship with your mother caused you great pain and so you felt that you needed to do this today.

Hi, yes I’m here to hold your hand.. as many others will be too. What made you go NC?
I went NC 2 weeks ago so know exactly how you are feeling. The guilt is unbearable at times.. it’s the first thing I think of every morning and my stomach lurches. I’m keeping myself busy reading all I can on covert narcissism and I’m currently listening to a podcast called ‘mother mayhem’ .. it’s helping me realise that I’m not alone and that I’m justified in making the decision to put myself and my children first.
I hope you are ok.. the guilt does lessen as the days roll by.. I’m just waiting for the abuse to start which it inevitably will because how dare I not want to know her.
Stay strong and read, journal your feelings, chat to us.. X

@Thatsajokeright sometimes it’s the only option. This is not a decision you would have taken lightly. Definitely trust yourself.

I’m NC with my parents but beginning to think I might have to extend it to other family members. I’ve got an upcoming diary date with a sibling and things aren’t great. I’m generally very LC as my Dsis has flying monkey tendencies. Now feeling I might need to swerve it completely as a few texts I’ve received recently are really starting to annoy me. She seems to be trying to project exactly the same blooming health anxiety obsession onto me that my NM spent my whole entire life pushing down my throat. It’s like they like to think they’re specially chosen or at higher risk because some older relatives have sadly got or died of cancer. Whereas the reality is nearly every family I know has had exactly the same. Both my husband’s parents have had and been treated for cancer in their 70s and the reality is one in two of us will probably get a diagnosis but if caught and treated in time, it’s not an immediate death sentence like they make out. My outlook to life is so different, especially after having a serious health scare myself this year. I’d rather enjoy every day as best I can and fully accept there are no guarantees to health. No one is eternal, it’s about making the best of whatever time you have. But this view made my NM vibrate with anger, and now I’m getting texts from my sister about elderly relatives who have had/have cancer and being told I need to inform my consultants. I go for regular checks as needed and apart from that I just want to live and enjoy my life but they seem incapable of letting me do this.

I had reservations about seeing Dsis already as she has a habit of repeating toxic unpleasant things my NM has said about me or my family which totally takes away one of the benefits of not having to see my vicious mother. I’m wondering if she secretly resents the fact I’ve gone NC and wants to make sure I don’t escape the toxicity of our dysfunctional family. I was hopeful to keeping some contact with my siblings on my terms, but it’s beginning to feel an impossible task.

I'm 39 next year so it's been nearly 4 decades of shitty behaviour, all of it invisible, emotional abuse.

She been giving me the silent treatment for over 3 weeks, only breaking that to invite me to lunch with her friend ( a 'lets show off how perfect and great my life is' sort of thing.) I declined and then didn't respond to her next message. So she rang my Dad (they separated 30 years ago but are on friendly speaking terms). Dad rang me to get me to message her and said she'd asked me how my holiday was. She absolutely has NOT asked how my holiday was. And it's like a flip switched. I was so angry! So she's trying to manipulate me through other people by lying now!

I've also protected my Dad from my mum, who has said some horrible, hateful things about him. So today I told him a handful of what she said to me. It's her job not to offend people, it's not my job to protect them.

It feels so petty and 'not enough' to call time but I think I've just reached my limit.

Personally I feel relationships like this are like a length of rope. As time goes by and more shitty things happen another fibre of the rope breaks until it’s hanging by a single thread. Then something else occurs, which may be relatively minor, but it’s enough to snap that last thread and there’s no going back. It’s over! People think you’ve forgotten/forgiven the earlier crap, not realising this is not the case. I feel like this with my sister now, there’s only a couple more threads at most left holding us together before it’s totally broken and gone.

that explains it perfectly. I am also at the end ofmy rope with my sister to use another analogy.

When I had therapy they called it the coiled spring. Lots of small weights added over a long period of time until it’s over stretched and springs back. It’s not that the last issue was massive it’s just the last thing added that tipped the weight. That’s why I found therapy helpful because they helped me see all the weights and how they built up because I had overlooked so much.

The thing is, after years and years of it, it’s often the smaller thing that makes something inside us just give up.. I can also relate to this as the reason I’ve gone NC was over something relatively trivial compared to the years of emotional crap I’ve put up with.. but I’d just had enough too. I wasn’t prepared for her to put me down in front of my children and then post crap things on FB in a passive aggressive manner.. not sure if your mum denies everything too but my mum is the queen of BS and trying to get herself out of situations by making out I’m over sensitive or not getting her ‘jokes’..
when you know you’re done.. you just know