August 2024 - But we took you to Stately Homes!

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007.

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwaite
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

I feel like I’ve made a big mistake with him. I’ve had enough games in my 40 years on this earth. I want a nice family not this again. I have told him in the past she makes me feel like an outsider but she has said something to him and he won’t allow me to have my own feelings. I’m telling him they “do” make me feel like this not asking whether it’s intended or allowed. So now I’m not allowed to feel like this because she has said to him that she isn’t doing anything. I’m always going to be the issue because she has had a long time to set up her theatre and get rid of those which doesn’t play properly. I know from experience I need to just leave this because you can’t win and they have everything set up to work for them.

@Happyfarm You deserve peace. You said you stay because of your kids but I think you know better, no? It's not the best for your kids unfortunately, but I also realise that even if you left they'd still be exposed to it if your husband stays involved.

I'm sure many people see my brother as such a nice man. But effectively he's a complete walkover, whilst his wife is a version of our abrasive, shouty and manipulative mother. he's just more difficult to unmask than her. I worry so much that my niece is picking up these behaviours and I really see the signs of it already.

Oh god no he would want half because she would want them despite doing nothing currently. He is an unintentional pawn in this. I honestly can’t believe I’m in this situation again, what are the chances of having a narc ex and now a narc MIL, ffs.

@flapjackfairy I reported it to office of public guidance in January it still hasn't been assigned to an investigator yet I reported it to adult safeguarding in July who visited dm within a week and referred it to the police as they thought there was manipulation and coercion going on the police went out asked dm if everything was ok and she said yes so they closed the case unless opg come up with something so I do need to go back to adult safeguarding to report again

We had equal poa until dsis removed me well got dm to remove me and then registered it with the bank

I read your posts and I can’t believe the lengths people go to but not only that how they get away with it, it’s crazy. I’m sorry you have to deal with this.

@Happyfarm it's such a pisstake that SS or courts get involved as soon as there is physical abuse, but emotional abuse is apparently allowed to happen and the abusive parent is still allowed access etc. I know the country would never have enough capacity to deal with all the emotional abuse cases, but it is so damaging!

Even my therapist said that emotional abuse is usually more difficult to recover from than physical abuse.

I’ve just had a row with my partner now because I’m sick of it all. I have an older Daughter who is in referral for ASD and he won’t adapt his behaviour at all to help the situation. How can I tell her we need to look within ourselves to see if how we behave could be contributing when he can’t do it either. I feel like I have 3 children to deal with, all are stubborn and always right all the time. I suspect his mum is ASD and him because none of them can self reflect, none of them do anything wrong. Every time I bring him up on something he replies with “well what about you”. I’m very close to telling them all the F off!

I do understand the situation you are in.. a friend is in a similar situation with her narc mother but her mother has just paid off her mortgage and now she feels indebted forever.
in some ways, if a parent is offering something to your relationship even if just financially it’s something.
my own mother has given absolutely nothing to our relationship .. I’ve not received a penny from her but it’s made going NC easier as I’ve never been reliant on her.. but in some ways it would have been nice if she had done something for me.. just something.
To be around my own children was really important to me too.. having been abandoned to boarding school at 6 I know the importance of being a present mum. I worked in my children’s nurseries/ primary schools as a TA so we could be together.. wasn’t particularly brilliant money or my dream job.. but I enjoy working with children and offering some of the children some form of stability when then may not have it at home.. plus my own children have loved having me there .. my son is at college now and living his best life and my daughter has started secondary school.. she no longer needs me at her place of education and I respect her boundaries and want her to flourish.
Im still a TA at their primary school so I can still be a present mum during the holidays if they need me.. although this is more about me being a taxi service these days lol
I understand why you are taking the money.. you didn’t get the childhood you deserved and want your children to have that.. take the money and look at it like this.. your father is enabling you to be a great present mum.. something he couldn’t do.. but don’t put up with any of his shit.. and if it’s seriously impacting your MH then you’ll have to ditch the support and move.. because I know first hand how a parent dementing us has a huge impact on our little family. I found my anxiety around my
mother calling me.. and her expectations of me were making me very unhappy.. once I went NC, I did/do feel elements of guilt.. but I also have peace and feel I can give all my energy to the people who matter.. X

wow as I said a piece if wirk !
I would keep on at social services and the Court of Protection. Unfortunately it is the only way . Escalate it to an official complaint because sometimes that is the only way. It is disgusting behaviour. 9 months to assign someone is way too long. Could age concern help at all or put pressure on ?
Does your mother have capacity? If not you could apply to the Court of Protection for a deputyship which overrides POA but you could only do that if your mother is incapable if making her own decisions.

@flapjackfairy I am not sure if dm is deemed as having capacity or not. The social worker was unsure which is why she referred it to the police as when she visited dm wasn't aware of her money situation which given the fact that this whole situation came to light 14 months ago because I took dm to the bank to get her statements as dsis had turned them off on the banking app and it was discovered dsis had taken £10k in 6 months which is before the poa was even registered with the bank I raised my concerns with the bank then and they did nothing

Dm is repetitive and can be forgetful but that could be old age rather than lacking capacity. Dm can't be bothered anymore she unfortunately trusts dsis and thinks she has her best interests at heart and is obviously believing her lies and by dsis isolating dm from me and my family dm has nobody else to help her. She no longer has a car dsis pocketed the money from that as well so needs shopping doing taking to appointments she can't walk far so can't use buses and wouldn't have a clue how to book a taxi has never been able to use the internet so dm is totally reliant on dsis now

@Spendysis
You can still apply even if you are not sure and give a witness statement on the form. Your sister won't be able to block.you and it will force the Court of Protection to assess the whole thing again. You do not need your mother's permission and then the court can.decide what is required and by whom. You could also ask Social services to arrange someone neutral.to hold POA if she still has capacity. I would see a specialist solicitor to see how to wrest control back.from your sister.

@flapjackfairy thank you so much i didn't realise i could do that If poa was already in place. I have just emailed a local solicitor to see if its something they can help me do

My DM died last month and we had been estranged for 8 years prior to this due to her behaviour etc.

As I’ve posted before it’s been a real rollercoaster of emotions and I’ve just started counselling yesterday. I’m struggling a bit with other people’s responses to me when I have told them she has died. I am a private person so very few people knew we were estranged and even less know any details of this.

I’ve had my best friend reply to my text with news to say how great her holiday has been, then says sorry to hear your DM has died, followed by more of her holiday news and a series of laughing emojis. That was nearly 3 weeks ago and not heard from her since.

Two other friends have responded similarly and not heard from them again.

My cousin (other side of family) replies with “yes we knew. How are you? Mum sends her love.” I don’t know why but the ‘yes we knew’ has really upset me and I still haven’t replied. My aunt (so cousins DM) has never contacted me until I got a letter this week saying are you not speaking to us, are you going NC and if so you have to tell me why etc.’ Nothing like I’m sorry to hear your DM has died (she knew my DM, her ex-SIL). Aunt is 88yo so I forgive her a bit for being direct, but she’s never once even text to say how are you, I’m sorry to hear.. etc. Neither know any details of the estrangement.

Only one friend checks in each week to ask how I am, as she realises I feel all over the place emotionally.

I don’t want tea and sympathy - I just don’t want to be laughed at. Maybe some will think I want it all ways but I don’t - I just wish good friends would understand and not laugh at me or bother to keep in touch.

he won’t allow me to have my own feelings.

Yet you describe him as "lovely"? I'm sorry, he isn't. He's an enabler and as we on this thread all know, enablers are abusive in their own right, putting their own desires (to not be narc's target or alternatively have to go NC) above other's welfare. You're in an abusive situation, you know what will happen if you stay and all your instincts are screaming at you to get out before you're completely destroyed.

We're fed this romantic notion that love is the panacea to all ills. The bald truth is, it isn't. It's a notion peddled by society to keep people, mainly women, hoping against all logic that bad situations will miraculously get better. It's a way for the patriarchy to keep women where they want them, which is largely still "beside their husband not complaining about their lot and accepting things they shouldn't have to". No amount of love from you will improve this situation. Whereas if he loved you and DC more than he loved himself, he wouldn't let his mother spread her toxicity over you or them. The family he created should be his priority now and they're not, his FOO still is. What a disaster.

Every time I bring him up on something he replies with “well what about you”.

That's DARVO. Abuse tactics.

--

if a parent is offering something to your relationship even if just financially it’s something.

These parents aren't giving something to the relationship when they offer money, they're taking something from it. It's a Trojan horse. Control dressed up as financial freedom.

I'm not sure I belong here...
My parents are emotionally immature and relied on me heavily for help with relationship stuff and as a go between for them. I took on this role quite proudly when I was younger thinking that I was helping them and so wise
My mum used to do the silent treatment alot to me and my dad and we walked on eggshells alot of the time, sometimes my dad supported me but other times it felt like he was scared to upset her so he's secretly tell me I was right
I think I've blocked alot out to he honest and I'm not sure I want to remember it all
The issue I have is that now I've got my family and I've worked so hard to be the mum I wish I'd had. I have a happy marriage too so I don't want to rake over the past and they arent bad people, just immature BUT my parents make my anxiety so bad... they still lean on me completely for emotional support and it makes me so angry that I almost have panic attacks. What is happening to me?
I know I need to maybe have some counselling but I guess I'm more interested in why i feel the way I do...
Sorry for the long ramble, I read all the latest thread and I just wanted to get my thoughts down...

@SamAndAnnie you are right. He portrays and often says he is the adorable one, he is the calm rational one. But he is enabling her because he is lost in it all. I thought I could go grey rock personally and leave him to it but she has him. It isn’t nice to deal with someone who does nothing wrong. They are perfect and I’m the wrong one. It gets me looking in on myself often checking whether I’m rational or not. I’m very wary of people who can’t see a problem in themselves. That was my abusive ex but he exploded more.

What is happening to me?
I know I need to maybe have some counselling but I guess I'm more interested in why i feel the way I do....

That's the type of thing counseling can help you figure out the specifics and how you feel about it and what to do. The short version is: you suffered childhood emotional abuse from both parents, the parentification of you is ongoing into adulthood, you've reached the limits of what you can tolerate and you're starting to crack up.

He's not so lost happyfarm. By his own admission he's aware of and choosing to embrace the role MIL assigned him, because he's decided it serves him in life (he's wrong in the long term, but that's not your issue to fix).

I have a strong dislike for and stay away from people who are totally laid back and never show anger about anything. IME they're always either complete stoners who can't go without it for 2mins, or toxic self-serving enablers who'll happily throw you under a bus if it serves them to do so. Either way, all they care about is their own state of relaxation. They don't GAF about anyone else's emotional wellbeing.

Crikey... I appreciate your honest answer
I guess I should look at some counselling

I didn’t think of it like that. I thought he chose to call himself this because it got him attention. But you are right he acted this way because people reacted in a positive way to him and I’m turn it made her look good so she was happy with him. He is by no means adorable and calm, he’s a sulking angry, completely stubborn man child. I wonder if the brother was called the successful one because he can’t stop working, can’t relax, has to have the best of everything, the most money. It’s hard to see this dysfunction from the inside.

Make sure it's not with someone who believes families should stay together at any cost. You need someone who understands toxic damaging family dynamics and generational trauma.

@SamAndAnnie I dread to think the role she has assigned me 😂 I can give it a good guess tho!

He is by no means adorable and calm, he’s a sulking angry, completely stubborn man child
Oh so he's a gaslighting emotional abuser then. Yeh, not meeting the description of "lovely husband" here really is he.
Reckon you're right on the money there with your assessment of the brother.

😅 yeh lots of projection involved I'll bet

I could have written this. It’s suffocating, that’s why you feel the way you do. It’s like a bottomless pit, it never ends. You have been handed the responsibility for a situation you don’t have any control over (their relationship). I stepped out of the dynamic a number of years back when I realised I had been parentified all of my life. My mum is still angry with me when I don’t take the bait. She has since tried to convince me of all sorts about my dad who is very kind. Saying he is abusive behind closed doors. He doesn’t had a bad bone in his body, although too frightened of her to rock the boat and protect me. Therapy is useful, also Dr Ramani’s books and podcasts are good.