August 2024 - But we took you to Stately Homes!

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007.

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwaite
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

Oh I do know him now that I have looked him up. I just didn't know the name.

He always reminds me of the dad from back to the future.

Good evening, I

I've not posted for a while but I have been reading everyone's posts. Refresher of my story is that the return of my mums abusive ex partner and the instruction to 'keep the peace' prompted me to finally get off my chest my mums shocking behaviour, constant gaslighting and belittling of me. Eventually siblings got involved running to my mums rescue calling me selfish, ungrateful 'but she done her best' bullshit and so I went NC with mum and 2 siblings, I am still in touch with 2 other siblings but contact is limited.

I decided to reach out to 1 sibling (that I NC with) who had just had a baby due to the awful guilt I was feeling, sibling basically berated me for not responding to her message (they were blocked so didn't get any messages) and told me they would be in touch 'when they are ready'. To be honest I was shocked, hurt but also glad she made it clear she is on my mums side and no longer have an ally in her, the guilt for her disappeared in that moment and was replaced with anger.

Its been 2 months and it is an emotional roller-coaster. Thankfully I have started therapy after waiting almost a year, it has come at the right time, therapist immediately said it appears that I am enmeshed with my my mum due to my extremely painful response of separating from her and I never even realised. I had heard of the term enmeshed but didn't apply it to me because I am aware that she has always been so nasty and critical of me, and I have lived apart from her for many years I believed I WAS separate from her, but now I REALLY am separated, its so painful and I really should not feel like this being mid 40's with my own children!!! What is obvious is that I need a lot of time away from her while I work on myself, I hate the fact that I am still connected with such a bitter and nasty woman, my biggest fear is being like her so I need to remain separate to even find myself.

What the fuck do I do about my siblings??? Is it realistic to expect to have a relationship with them separate from her? they are just as deeply enmeshed as me, maybe even more so. Its so shit I hate this.

twatalert, wow, well done! How is it when you visit?

supamum siblings are tricky are everyone is damaged in a dysfunctional family.
Patrick Keahan mentioned above deals with this in some of his videos, really recommended.

Hey! This is my first post and I don't even know if I fit in here because I'm putting myself in a situation where I am / have to be in contact with my dad.

Both of my parents are quite toxic, in different ways. They separated when I was a teenager and I figured my mum was more toxic, my dad hadn't shown his toxicity quite to the full extent so I "chose" him because they both made it clear that I can't stay in touch with both, only one. Real mature.

My dad is v successful financially. Since the divorce he travels the world with various women, has a few girlfriends (they all know that other girls exist as he doesn't hide it at all but have never met) and invited myself and my DC (toddler age) on some of these holidays. I don't work because he pushed me into a career in finance which I found draining and hated, and eventually he encouraged me to quit and become a SAHM as this was around the time of my wedding. I live a very nice life (flat in a nice part of town in my name, cleaner, child set to go to private school, travel with a nanny to help me out). He is incredibly misogynistic, perhaps exacerbated by the divorce. Will say things to me like "all women are crazy, it depends to which extent", seems to only have negative things to say about all my friends like "she's pointless" about a girl who enjoys sailing which according to him is silly or "he'll never achieve much" about my husband who is in a decent job. Seems to weirdly put my child and me in competition by saying things like "maybe I should change my will and leave everything to DC, because what if you get divorced and it goes to your husband, and not down my own bloodline", often reminds me that he's highly intelligent and the only reason he enjoys talking to me is because I'm his child otherwise I'd just be another silly woman who is a little crazy.

I have to listen to this if I want to keep the financial support. And I do. Largely I want it for my child. I want to be a SAHM and I couldn't on my husbands salary. But towards the end of the holidays with DF I always feel extremely drained, worthless and scared that he will drop me at any minute.

@EUmumforever I have cut contact and don't visit. Visits in the years leading up to it were increasingly frustrating and painful. The more I healed the less I could be around them.

@Supamum3 I remember you. Well done on starting therapy and good to know your therapist already sees through it.

Enmeshment is so weird. When I started therapy a year ago mine told me that I got away from them physically but in my head I still very much lived 'at home'. Every tiny boundary I started to put up with them sent me into a panic attack.

@Supamum3 regarding siblings, take on step at the time. See what feels right whilst respecting their boundaries, but put yourself and your healing first always. Agree everyone plays a role in a dysfunctional family and is dysfunctional by default. Some are less so though, especially scapegoats.

It's likely that we will lose siblings too if we can't be who we want to be in order to be well with them.

@naomimn it's interesting that you are trying to put up with your dad's behaviour in order to receive financial support so you can be a SAHM. It's a transaction that traps you and he knows it. Id be more worried about the views my child would pick up subconsciously and the impact his behaviour has on all of you than sending them to childcare and maybe rethink the lifestyle and try and find a job that's enjoyable enough.

Why exactly is this lifestyle so important to you? I think people can live well with less but have better mental health and enjoy the days more.

Id probably feel really weak and dependent in your situation. It's probably a lot more empowering if you make ends meet through your own effort, whatever these ends are. It's like being in a financially abusive marriage otherwise.

Firstly, yes I absolutely do feel weak, pathetic, dependent etc but I absolutely love having the time with my child. I also want a big family, 3-4 kids, and I know financially my husband and I won't be able to without DF. At the same time I realise that having 1-2 kids means we will be far less trapped than 3-4.

The support is pretty huge, it's probably almost double per year what my husband earns after tax, as "gifts". It means I get to live in a pretty modern flat in central London. It means I get help around the house so I can focus on my child full time.

I've developed this thing where in any conversation I sort of go "u-huh" "yep" "that's right" and feel even more pathetic for it because it's literally like "your best mate is such a pointless person" "yep" followed by "but all women are a bit psycho, look at Girlfriend A who said [entirely normal thing given she's a goldigger with a sugar daddy and is asking for funding] or Girlfriend B who said [something when she was frustrated], even you when you did X" "that's right"...

Yes it's absolutely like a financially abusive marriage. I've wondered sometimes if this is easier (being the child of a wealthy but financially abusive parent) or being married to one because then I'm the mother of his children and can't be as easily dropped.

Yes its so hard. I genuine thought we were all experiencing my mums awful behaviour together and we relied on eachother to get through some of the really dark times so I was so shocked that they made out that it was all in my head. Thanks for sharing that info, I'll check him out.

@Twatalert and I guess also, importantly, it's allowing us to do IVF at the moment to conceive a second.

Funnily enough, I've told my dad my egg quality is poor despite quite a young age and today he used this to tell me that I am not made for carrying babies and should "just get a surrogate. But obviously your choice if you just want to [rude way of saying make it difficult for yourself].

I want to be able to pick up my child from school and drop them, be with them in the holidays etc. I think 85% of why I'm putting up with it is child-related.

But when IVF is done I bet it'll be something else. Pregnancy / healthcare. Kids' education. The fact the financial support allows my husband and I not to really argue about finances so a more peaceful relationship.

Your therapist also sounds right on. The internal mother is embedded and takes much more work to get away from than the physical mother. Its awful.

You are right regarding siblings, I am sure they are grappling with loyalty if we did ever have a relationship. I think my mum must be continuing to bitch about me especially to my sister, it seems so out of character and I can only think she feels she has to choose and has chosen her which is so hurtful, but inevitable. Thanks for the advice re; prioritising own healing, I have to get that tattooed because I am such a people pleaser!!

@naomimn I didn't want to respond again, but since you seem to have come here for advice: your financial dependency on your father as an adult woman is highly concerning. I can't figure out if you are trying to be the martyr for your kids by 'giving them everything at great expense of your mental wellbeing' or whether you are happy with the trade off.

This sounds horrible. I'd be worried about the impact on the children too, both picking up on your dad's views and also seeing you in a situation where you feel sad and pathetic.

If being at home with several kids is the most important thing to you, do you have the option to move out of London? That means a drastic change in costs. Would you consider going back to work, maybe part time, once the kids are at school? Honestly if I were you I'd be looking for the way to get out of your current situation, and even if the support is huge, it sounds like you can manage without it which is a great position to be.

@Supamum3 yeah, always you and your own family first from now on!

I struggle to see through my brother who is very much enmeshed with my parents. Not just in his head like me, but constant WhatsApp messages and photos of what he's doing etc. he never 'rocked the boat' (unlike me) and wasn't a scapegoat (unlike me). I sense a kind of dependency on my parents where I wonder if it's guilt driven. I often wonder what he thinks. If he's fed up and sometimes wishes he could get away or if he thinks everything is okay.

They do contact each other for really pointless things and send each other photos where you wonder 'why this photo'. Like he's driving on the road and sends a photo of a car and then it turns out it has a numberplate from the area we grew up in.

I wonder what will happen to him when his daughter grows up and moves out and my parents die.

Naomi you can either live your life like everyone else or you can sell your soul and DC soul to the devil (your father) for money.

He's trying to isolate you from everyone with those comments about them and making you pick sides in the divorce and eventually by turning your own DC against you (he's already started), make you financially dependent on him with persuading you to be SAHM with no career, and totally control your life in general.

A typical domestic abuser then. One you can easily escape though because you don't live with him, aren't married to him and he isn't the father of your DC. You can and should walk away.

In bed feeling sorry for myself as I have covid thankfully quite mild but can't sleep it my annual leave typical and we we're looking at going abroad so I tested before I booked flights

I've explained my situation before it's my dsis who has recently caused all our family problems financially abusing and manipulating my dm and cutting me and my family off so she can continue doing it

I've had quite a few triggers recently dd birthday no call from dm or card it would of been dsis who would of had to get her a card. Dd masters degree results and new job normally the first thing i would tell dc if they had news was to ring dm dsis and family friends but not now

I went to see dm to tell her and to take a piece of birthday cake and she didn't invite me in the house she was pleasant enough but when i said aren't you going to invite me in she said no reason to let you in I am not doing anything she's 84 not done anything for years and is usually glad of the company this has come from dsis couldn't question her further on the doorstep as it would of been recorded on the ring doorbell connected to dsis phone the reason I have use the doorbell to my childhood home is because dsis has already changed the locks

I feel so sad so hurt me and my dc haven't done anything wrong not only has dsis taken dm money remortgaged her house changed her will will get any jewellery sentimental items excluded us from family celebrations which may be dm last I know don't even feel like i can have a conversation with dm not that I ever discussed any of this or tried to influence her in anyway as I didn't want to upset her

So can I share with you as dd doesn't want it on social media as dsis has mutual friends and she doesn't want dsis to know as she has given up that right dd got a 2.1 in her masters degree in clinical psychology she has got her first full time job as an occupational therapist assistant in a local private woman mental health hospital

Every tiny boundary I started to put up with them sent me into a panic attack.

This is me too twat every time I say no to anyone at all for any reason. It's going to take time for me to get used to having boundaries.

Congratulations to DD spendysis

have you involved the police ? And report to anyone you can. Does sister have Power of Attorney etc ? If so report to Court of Protection . And adult social services.

What a piece of work your sister is !

I used to have a lot of sympathy for people like this who’ve experienced trauma and suffered to the point they are narcissistic. I don’t think I do anymore. They aren’t human. The way they have positioned their lives so carefully. I honestly thought I could live along side, maybe outsmart my MIL by just remaining myself. They are like demonic the way they can split their personalities for different people. I really don’t want to feel like this but I’m starting to regret meeting my partner, as lovely as he is. He has absolutely no idea he is a pawn and what she is doing to me. If not for our child I think I would leave because she is coming home into our house via him and no matter how much I grey rock her she still gets through. Absolutely nobody (apart from the ostracised wife of her father also) not even her son would stick up for me. I’m going to sound insane saying my thoughts out loud to anyone especially to my partner as he thinks she’s amazing. I want to run! When I left my abusive marriage I promised myself a good life without abuse.

He visited them yesterday as he always does because they never come here despite being 10 mins away. They don’t come to see our children clearly because of me. He doesn’t even have the backbone to stand up for them. He comes home with this pathetic excuse of they send there apologies they haven’t come to visit or give the kids there gifts from their holiday because they needed to sort out the water butt for the shed. They’ve been back a week and haven’t seen the kids for months and months. Pathetic that he is ok for them to excuse bothering to visit his kids for a water butt! But they have seen the other grandkids and the photos are on FB and he has actually liked the pictures. Whats wrong with my partner????

@Happyfarm
He is well trained to accept it. He is not capable of even seeing it at this point in his life unfortunately. And to see it would crash everything he has believed his whole life. He has to face the reality that he did not have the perfect family and parents and it is all basically an elaborate charade.

Non of that is easy to do . Much easier not to rock the boat. We all understand that as we know how hard it is from bitter experience. Whether he can get there is a big question . But what is it doing to your kids in the meantime?

@Happyfarm the relationship between your husband and his mother and his kids sounds like the relationship my brother has with our mother and his daughter.

No backbone and always quietly following the narcissist. No mind of their own. It's sickening that he doesn't stand up for you.