August 2024 - But we took you to Stately Homes!

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007.

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwaite
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

@JustLaura it is. Here I was dishing out advice to user, whilst still not sure whether I am maybe a bit too harsh on my parents 🙄

I honestly wish I could believe myself as much as I believe everyone else's story on here.

@Twatalert I read some posts and think that's horrendous then read mine back and think why am I doing this. I think it's a dawning realisation that it's not normal for my family to treat me this way. I question most days if it's me or them that has the issue?

It's worse than usual at the moment as a previous work colleague moved to start a new life 3 years ago, new home, new area, complete re-invention she said at the time (no narc family issues just felt as though she didn't belong). All was ok for a bit over a year, then she said the same stuff was happening again so she realised it was something to do with how she interacts.....
That really confused my situation hearing her say that.

@JustLaura Every time i turn into an emotional wreck I think I need to move house. I don't feel comfortable at home and think it's the layout, location, not enough light etc. Then I get better and think 'what the heck'. Then I feel so lucky in my home and so comfortable. I do a complete 180 on this over and over again.

I think we obviously learnt some coping mechanisms during our abuse and they do affect how we interact negatively. But other things we just need to remove ourselves from.

I often question if I am reacting to past abuse if I feel really uneasy around someone other than my parents or if my body is sending me signals to get the hell away from them for good reason.

Sometimes I ruminate but other times I just decide to get out as they either aren't good for me or I'm not ready to deal with them as I haven't healed parts of me.

My MiL is on my social media because I haven’t the heart to take her off yet and the last time I removed a family member everyone was messaging me asking what have we done wrong etc etc, I didn’t want the drama. Anyway the MiL keeps commenting on my photos of their grandchildren, comments which makes them look like loving people when we all know they aren’t. They make no effort despite living 5 mins away and we’ve not seen them in months, never had any support, she hates me etc. It’s all an act to make her look good and keep up this facade. What would you do? I so badly want to reply to a msg and give some truth but I know what will happen but I’m sick of her msging this crap. I’m at this point getting fed up walking around on eggshells because my partner loves his mum and if I say anything I will be the issue. I regret so badly not knowing this family before committing myself. She has her whole world set out to make her look good I really wish I could just walk away but I’ll split my family up.

wow . This is so me over moving. I will begin by saying my experience is nowhere near what others have endured. It was more a complete inability to.be emotionally supported. It was v much be a good girl and get in with it. Any failure or failing was always pointed out with no.praise to balance it etc. And cold shoulder if you transgressed etc
Ha ha just realised I am doing it now ( gaslighting myself ) but I was not subjected to systematic vitriol or violence( though smacking got out of hand a couple of times) so I do not see my childhood as outwardly abusive as such.
But I digress. One v damaging factor for me was frequent house moves which involved losing everything and starting again and I struggle so much with loss and change . I have had a horrible few years with bereavements and endless change and loss and I just can't settle in my home now and I can't decide if it is me or the circumstances. The thing is I cannot easily move because we have a house that is heavily adapted for our 2 disabled kids and our requirements are so specific. I also live in a bit of a shit area which has always been looked down on by my family. It all just makes me feel rubbish even though I have a lovely house with lots of space and character. I keep wanting to press the self destruct and move because I fear losing it all anyway so I might as well get it over with. My long suffering DH has to keep talking me down. It is so hard to hold onto what is real and I think.it is a reflection of how I feel inside. I am.probably rambling but I so understand the constant trying to decide if I an exaggerating or not. It messes my head up.
I saw something one day about Cheeraphobia ( Cheraphobia ? ) which is a fear of being happy. And this is me to a tee. To be happy means it is all about to implode so I try not to.allow myself to do it too much in the first place. What a way to live!
Sorry for the ramble but it helps. I appreciate you all and your sharing x

I keep wanting to press the self destruct and move because I fear losing it all anyway so I might as well get it over with.

@flapjackfairy This is also me too. I’m currently going through the process, and this time I think I will actually do it. My mental health is through the floor at the moment and it feels like the only solution.

I’m really surprised Dr Ramani has said this. My mum is ok with my children but we live abroad so only see them for a week once a year and I check in to a hotel. She’s doing a good job of pretending to care about them - much better than she ever did as a mum - but I watch like a hawk.

I have a sneaky suspicion my mum is starting to show signs of dementia. The thing is, nobody is able to say anything to her as we all know not to poke the bear who must be allowed to remain in her belief that she is perfect at all times, otherwise all hell breaks loose.

happyfarm just get a new profile, under a nickname or something and use something for the profile pic that isn't you. Lock down the privacy settings. Only add good friends so there's not hundreds to gossip about updates they may have seen, which minimises the risk of the knowledge of the new profile's existence getting back to your family.

Gradually phase out the current one, posting less and less over time until it's a very bland sanitised version that you barely post on, maybe a pic of your Christmas tree or your holiday hotel or the odd dull status update. Sharing pics/posts from groups you're in that are visible to the public is a good way to update status without passing on any information - lost dog, cute kittens, crime warnings, inspirational memes etc. Tell family you're losing interest in FB and don't really go on it any more.

Delete messenger and turn off notifications etc for that account. Never reply to messages on it no matter how tempting and tell people you forget to check them, which you will if you basically stop using the account and end notifications etc. Only arseholes or self centered thoughtless people will keep messaging you on there if they never get a reply. Then just arrange to meet up occasionally by text or phone with the family you want to be in contact with. Ignoring texts, calls or emails from the rest.

It shows how much they're cyber stalking you if they actually notice, among their probably hundreds of FB "friends", that you've deleted them. Realistically they'll only notice if they try to access your page. I blocked my entire family and it was only toxic people who noticed, the rest assumed we were still FB friends and that I'd seen their updates. Also I find it's best to block if you do decide to delete someone, if you just unfriend they'll get the "people you might know" feature with you on it because they've recently interacted with your status updates and pics etc. If you block them they can't even see if you like someone else's pic, it'll show the like but say "nobody likes this" when they click on it to see who it was.

I’m really surprised Dr Ramani has said this

I haven't seen the video but context is everything.

Saying they might make better grandparents than parents isn't necessarily wrong. Parenting is stressful and could exacerbate nasty behaviour. Parenting is also 24/7 but grandparenting isn't, it's easier to mask true nature for a short time whilst DGC visit, but impossible to do so permanently around their own DC.

Saying someone can make a better grandparent than parent isn't the same as saying that you should use your own DC as an experiment to see if it's true in your particular case. The statement can be true without you having to take any action other than continued NC. Possibly she was saying it (along with whatever else she said about it) as an explanation for those who have noticed it's true in their families and wondered why.

Thanks for your advice. Honestly this family member has over 500 friends and the day after I un friend my partner gets a msg to say why had so and so done this have we done something wrong.

I agree that narcs can control themselves for periods of time but I don't think they could be involved grandparents. Like a poster here said...they can keep it together for a week a year without overnights.

Ultimately the mask will always slip. I see it with my niece the poor girl in the grips of her narcissistic grandmother. She goes there after school for an hour or so every day and I assume my mother is a half decent person then. But the narc doesn't lose the distorted thinking and my niece has been mistreated so many times on other occasions it's sickening.

What my mother will do when my niece gets picked up by her parents is give a summary of her time there and it always is to put herself in a good light. She will of course never say when she totally lost it at her. Shouting, threats and intimidation are seen as normal and not recognised for what they are.

I think it's always dangerous to give a child in the hands of the narc for any period of time. A lot of manipulation is so subtle it is very hard to recognise even by an adult. I wouldn't do it.

I recently lost access to my Instagram account. I just use it to look at stuff and have no followers. I opened a new one and within minutes my father requested to follow me. I didn't even have my name in it. I think it's because I used my mobile number. I felt sick and opened yet another one without my phone number. I don't know what planet these people are on.

My father is following relatives they fell out with 20 years ago and haven't seen or spoken to. I just don't know what these people gain from it and why they do it. He has a following there from what seems like a past life so that you'd think they'd actually have friends and a social life. They don't. They'd randomly add neighbours from 15 years ago they never had a relationship with. Do they convince themselves that they actually have people in their lives? They have no friends or acquaintances. They think they are friends with my brother's friends, who aren't his friends but his wife's and my parents very much despise the wife.

I'm just sitting here laughing at how weird this all is and the things they tell themselves.

@Twatalert my MIL is on her DILs sisters FB account. If only you could see the shit she goes on about. How amazing all the sisters are, how proud she is of them and all the kindness they share. I mean why does she think she is so important to put that stuff on peoples fb she doesn’t have a relationship with. She thinks she looks good flattering them so others can see but I think it’s odd. Spread a little of that pride to your other son!!

Yes @Twatalert really dangerous. My mum tries to come across as granny of the year but she really undermines my parenting. She does things like buy the kids huge ice creams before dinner and tells them not to say anything.

There’s a reason why I put an ocean between us when I was 17 and only visit once a year.

@Mumof3confused ultimately the narc is not self aware and they will still employ destructive tactics. My mother used food to control me. It gave me an eating disorder.

Now she does it with my niece. If she's hungry it's 'what, do you want to eat AGAIN?'. Another time she sulks and guilt trips my niece if she doesn't want to eat a certain food or not eat anything at all. I dont think they know how much they'd have to hide for how long in theory to pass as normal. Don't think it's possible.

I went down a rabbit hole and looked up my relatives insta following. My brother follows a 'friend' who was outcast yonks ago for needing in patient psychiatric treatment. They cut off people in real life. Fair enough, they can if they want to, but then follow their social media and update my parents about their activities?

One time my brother shared an insta update of a cousin nobody has seen or spoken to in 20 years with his parents. I just don't get it. They live in another world that doesn't actually exist.

@SamAndAnnie

I'm not very up on tech.

Can people find your account on here by knowing your email or mobile number?

Thanks

Not if you lock down your privacy settings to disallow it. There's absolutely no reason FB needs your phone number anyway. Email is sufficient. Go into absolutely everything in FB settings and look at every single choice, ensuring you choose the most private options.

You can easily get a new email just for FB if you want. Gmail, Yahoo, Outlook etc will all give you a free email address. Same with Instagram, that doesn't need phone number to set up either. If you don't give your phone number to all and sundry it makes getting a new phone number if necessary much easier too, less official people/sites to tell. If you've got more than one email you can use the other for the security backup, if the site insists on that, and so keep your phone number private.

I don't even use my real name or DOB in setting up these things. Including the second SM email. So even if someone was a bit of a hacker and managed to access things they shouldn't, they're still not getting any real information on me.

I never do the sign into XYZ site using your Google/FB etc account so nothing is linked either. We rely too much on technology and happily give it all our information without questioning why they want it. There's no need half the time, they're just gathering data.

Twat that's mental, he must have some kind of search set up for your phone number I guess.

Oh just realized I maybe misunderstood Laura. By "here" so you mean MN? If so, no you're safe unless they're a hacker. This site is designed for anonymity not for connecting people with their friends IRL.

Thanks @SamAndAnnie

You are right but all the info was useful to me! Thanks x

Thank goodness for that. I was thinking oh now there are bound to repercussions for me if MN links people by email/phone number. Phew.

I have been lurking here for years, but posting for the first time. I have discovered that I come from a toxic family system. I always thought that my father was the monster, which he is, and my mother/brother/me were the victims. My father is a malignant narcissist, and I’ve spent my whole life being protective over my mother and my brother who is a year younger than me. But I have discovered that I was parentified by my mother, who has been telling me about her unhappiness with my father and his family since I was a child. It’s always been about her and her pain. I confronted her recently about this and how she’s never there for me — when I have tried to confide in her she’s either blanked me, told me I have nothing to complain about or told me not to ‘do that to her’ as she cannot cope with any more problems. A few examples:

1. At 13 I tried to tell her I’d met a boy I liked, as I had heard other girls told that kind of thing to their mums. She blanked me and continued knitting. I was so embarrassed I never told her anything again, until…
2. in my 40s I was going through a bad patch with my partner. I tried to hell her, and she blanked me. I insisted and she said : ‘you cannot do this to me, after all I went through with your brother’s divorce’. I stopped.
3. I had a very traumatic termination of pregnancy due to a medical issue at 20 weeks. The day I came out of hospital she told me we would never mention it again: I went through the worst period of my life with no family support at all. 15 years later I find out she’s been telling people about this and how much she suffered. I confronted her about it, she responded that she suffered too!!!
4. when I was 7 months pregnant with first child, I went to see them - European country, I left at 20. My father had told me I would have to keep my mum company while he went on safari to South Africa, as he hadn’t told her he was going. I was so anxious as I knew there would be a massive upset on the day he left. Day arrived. He left to airport having told my mum 10 minutes before when she saw the luggage. I spent the next few days until I left consoling my mum, who was having panic attacks and hyperventilating. My husband was in UK, it was my last trip to see them before giving birth. I was 7 months pregnant.

I could go on and on. I have always known I haven’t had a father - he’s never been there for me or had a conversation with me except to triangulate and manipulate. He’s never been interested in me. He’s a malicious manipulator. But the big blow has been the realisation that I haven’t had a proper mother either. I’ve always felt so protective over that I’ve put myself second. My brother has become a combination of the two, but that’s another story and I blame the toxic family system.

Am I justified in feeling broken, alone and betrayed? I feel massively guilty as I left/escaped at 20 and only see them twice a year. I’m now in my 50s and I’ve been doing work on myself for years, reading, counselling…. But right now I’ve hit a massive low and feel worse than ever.

thanks for reading this

@EUmumforever Hello! Of course you are justified to feel broken, alone and betrayed. In a family like yours/ours it's never just one parent. It's just that one parent is the obvious monster and the other, usually the enabler, takes time to identify.

I know the betrayal you must feel for seeing your mother for who she is, but beyond that I think it's an important step for further healing.

I really really don't think it's possible that in a long relationship there would be someone like your father and the other parent would be healthy. It's always a messed up set up and you were abused by both.

The discovery of this is so hard. It effectively can make you realise that neither parent looked out for you and everyone was just out for themselves.

My father seemed a total angel compared with my mother. But as an adult I understood that he was happy to feed me to the wolves (her) for his own peace. She would mistreat me and he would justify it or stay silent or else she would attack him for 'not supporting her'. He remains her mouthpiece to this day.

You seem to have done ok for yourself. Recognising how both parents failed us is a massive thing. It can be followed by a period of grief, but accepting it is better than denial.

Thank you twatalert (what a great name 😄).
yes, I remember my father beating my brother so badly that he was in bed for days, this happened twice at about 10 and then at 17. My mother didn’t leave him, and I was always blamed myself for not defending my brother- I was 11 and 18.
When you see the enabler it’s very hard

do you know Patrick Keahan?
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbWvYupGqq3aMJ6LsG4q-Yg

he is brilliant at unpicking dysfunctional family systems

@EUmumforever I don't know, will look him up!

I'm also from the EU btw and escaped young to get away from them.