August 2024 - But we took you to Stately Homes!

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007.

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwaite
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

It's like they just want to steal your thunder, isn't it? Such a rubbish thing for her to do when she knows it's your 'thing'. It's like they have no awareness at all. Or the alternative is that it's deliberate which I find hard to think about.
My mum does this with small stuff too. I'll buy tickets to go to a gig with friends, she'll buy tickets the next day so her and my younger sis can come too. I got a rug for my living room, she got the same one. I made an insta account about my house renovations, she made one about her gluten-free food. Stuff like that all the time. Yet she also hates it if I do something she wouldn't. We recently went camping (first time with our kids though we love camping and have done loads in the past) and all I got was take our caravan, why don't you take our caravan, it will be better in the caravan, I'd much rather be in a caravan etc etc. Of course when I finally asked her to stop she it was all I'm just trying to help, I'm making you a kind gesture etc. It's infuriating.

@Happyfarm Your explanation about the fish tank/ocean was amazing, and I hope you don’t mind but I have screenshot it, just to read myself again in the future.
Very wise words.

No worries. I think we are just underdeveloped and I do think that we will be ok and grow if we remove ourselves from this world they have us is. I know I’ve definitely grown these past years. They just don’t want us to because they need us to play this role.

I’ve been NC with my mother a couple of times and I found it so hard both times that as soon as she made contact or turned up at my house I forgave her.. very quickly she was back to goading me and since our last NC I’ve been trying to find a way to get her out of my life once and for all.. I’ve been NC for just over a week now and the guilt has obviously started to set on again.. but I have to remember why I’m doing this. I’ve written a list of things she’s done and said to me over 48 years and a list of her good points.. the list of bad is 8 pages long.. the good is a paragraph.. when I need reassurance in my decision I read it. I also keep in touch with all of you for some support. Don’t stop sharing how you feel with us .. it’s not easy.. nobody chooses to orphan themselves but it’s testament to the never ending cycle of abuse that can no longer be tolerated.. and shouldn’t be either.
I’ve got the added bonus of my mother being quite Ill and her big birthday coming up.. I’m not sure she will be around for long.. this in itself is awful.. but then I think if she had wanted to make our relationship rock solid in her final months:years, she would have been nicer to me.. stay strong. You have us

@HeadacheEarthquake when I went NC I had 2 months of rage, resentment, hurt, tears, I was a mess tbh. In my mind they simply wouldn't meet me half way, behave themselves, respect basic boundaries etc
I knew they would never change and I just couldn't go on any longer. You cannot expect change of others only of ourselves, if you stay within punching distance you are going to get punched. It gets easier and faded into total indifference for me. I literally no longer gave a shit. It's not easy but what is our alternative? Carry on being abused or go out and live our lives, we can't do both. Xx

So it was my birthday a few days ago and my parents did indeed send me flowers. I panicked and had a cry as soon as I saw the box, but I opened it and it had a note saying 'we love you'. My parents never say such thing. My father must have written it. I don't think my mother would ever be able to say 'we love you'.

I binned the flowers, I had to get them out of my house, but the note is playing on my mind. The thought that they seem bewildered by my decision (are they?), but why would they say this now. I needed to hear and feel it when I was a child. I'm thinking maybe they suffer, but then I feel it is further manipulation. They know they have gone too far and everything that worked previously to get me back in hasnt worked. So they say ' we love you' which they never said before. I don't want to hear it now and I don't believe it anyway. I could have dealt with and moved on from the flowers, but not with the words.

They can love you and be awful at the same time. Depends on the definition of the word in their world. It’s how you experience it that matters. My ex husband I have no doubt loved me and told me and wrote it in cards but on other days he scared me, pushed me, belittled me. He loved me in his world when I played the role he assigned me but outside of his world and in mine it meant nothing. He said in reverse that I didn’t love him enough, I don’t doubt in his world I did love him enough, that’s because in the “real world” it’s wasn’t possible to do. It’s all in the behaviour and the experience.

@Happyfarm I don't know. I just don't think it's love if it is only some days. I know they probably think they love me (shudder), but I don't see a definition of love as a spectrum. How you express and live it.. sure there are many ways and you aren't always showing it or showing to the same degree, but loving someone is pretty black and white to me.

I don't really get how you could verbally destroy someone, emotionally neglect your child and manipulate it into obedience or enable your spouse to do this to your child and convince yourself you love your child.

@Twatalert its a good thing you and the rest of us don’t understand. We aren’t like that so we shouldn’t be able to understand. Love means many different things to different people. Control means love to lots of people sadly I think.

Love to my mum means making sure my hair was brushed and I was tidy for school and fed but it’s wasn’t about making sure I was emotionally heard. Love to my MIL is only talking about the positives and completely avoiding any struggles and ignore you if you have them. She gets involved when it’s all fun but is nowhere to be seen when you need them. Neither of these people speak my definition of love so I give them none of mine. My love is not easy anymore. I think we are taught to accept so bloody little.

Twatalert

Bin the note too if you have not already done this. Its also just another attempt at hoovering you back into their dysfunctional world. Do not give it any more power than it already has. It may also be the florist's handwriting and was instructed to write those words. Again do not fall for such hoovering attempts.

It all went into the bin straight away. I also just binned a small ornament I once received from my mother that was still on my kitchen cupboards. I'll buy myself something new instead.

Maybe I'm rigid, but I don't think I am. I just think many confuse 'acts of affection' with love . I don't think narcs and their enablers get the concept of love. How could they. They are disconnected from their authentic self and so how could the possibly truly love someone.

Yes it's probably hovering by my parents.

@Twatalert love is shown in actions. It is easy to say or write I love you but if the behavior doesn't back it up, it is manipulation. Usually too little too late.
My parents would swear how much they love me, how proud they were of me...... however their behavior was never proud, loving or supportive. I became an incredibly strong assertive person, however I didn't want/need to be strong as a small child, I wanted/needed to feel safe. I never felt safe.
They simply couldn't understand my going NC despite my telling them in a rage filled, verbal purge! I wish I had done it 40 years ago.

Well it was bring your family to work where my MIL works this evening and guess who wasn’t invited. Lovely to think she has been showing off her prised possessions, the other son and DIL and their 2 kids. It’s expected but it does feel so shit.

@Happyfarm

Do yours tell you in advance so you know it's happening but knowing that you've not been invited? Mine do.

Then when whatever has taken place I'm told about it minute by minute, usually with the end line of "You should've come. It's been a good party. You missed out".

I have also had no invite to a wedding (paper invites were sent out). When my mutual friends parents mentioned to the host that I hadn't been invited in a questioning tone, the groom glossed over it but then my Parents said weeks later that the groom had said to them I can go as it will help them (they need to be accompanied due to mobility issues). I again said I hadn't had an invite like the rest and not even a text asking me!

To top that off my mutual friends parents said to my friend they'd heard I was really off-ish from a few people and did she find that too!

I unfortunately made the mistake of reacting to it once. I was told "we don't invite you as we know you won't want to go or won't turn up". At this point it was upsetting me. I've never got invited in adulthood and I've never not turned up.

But nowadays I absolutely don't want to go so we agree on that!!!😆My life is too short to play act with them.

Nope it’s a secret between them so I won’t be told anything. But it will be mentioned afterwards. They just bloody horrible people with no soul. It’s bad enough to think that the other BIL is so desperate for his mother’s love he is happy to be paraded around. She does nothing to support him and has not earned her position in his life. He blindly follows. See
now the little buggers have got in my head space!!!!

People who have been NC for years: how do you make sure you don't forget why you went NC so that you aren't going back?

I have so much peace since going NC. It's amazing how peaceful life is without all the drama. Sometimes I can't quite imagine what it was like, so I sit here and try to remember. I only really remember it if I have a flashback or small panic attack or so. Then I remember why I get this and that it's because of how poorly I was treated.

Has anyone got any experience of letting your parent see your children? Everything in my body tells me it's not a good idea but I was listening to Dr Ramani earlier and she was saying basically that they can be good grandparents and my children might not forgive me for it later in life.
I've not seen my mum in 6 weeks though we have been messaging and I've been explaining and telling her how I feel and it's all turned into such a mess. Obviously she's not taken any it on board. This is what she has said today:

I am not going to try and defend myself any more. I have tried to show I am sorry. You just keep saying but this, but that. I can't say anymore.
I will never interfere with your life anymore or try and give advice. I am here if you need me. Or want to see me.
Please can we come to an arrangement so that we can spend some time with Gd and Gs on a regular basis wherever you prefer. Poor kids must wonder what going on. We will understand if they seem distant and even angry. It must be very confusing for them. I promise not to say anything to them that may be construed as guilt tripping.

I'm wondering if my reaction to this is way off and would appreciate thoughts.

What did Dr Ramani say??? I respect her greatly but I am surprised she'd say such thing. I think it's total BS. I think I heard her say once that narcs can mellow with age (opposite is my experience..they become more unhinged) but they will remain narcs.

Honestly don't do it. Trust yourself and the feeling you have. Your mother will not treat her grandchildren differently all of a sudden. She hasn't changed and will use the same tactics on them. She's already guilt tripping you (kids must be confused etc) whilst telling you she won't guiltrip them (sorry I have to laugh. It is that bizarre).

@Twatalert 'She's already guilt tripping you (kids must be confused etc) whilst telling you she won't guiltrip them (sorry I have to laugh. It is that bizarre).' That's exactly how I see it but honestly I feel so 'in it' that I don't know if I'm being unfair.
@binkie163 your post resonates with me so much. Thank you.

Whoever asked - When I've gone NC with someone in the past I know I haven't done it lightly and I know I've done it for good reason, so I trust myself and don't go back on my decision no matter what. It's s choice to trust myself and stick with my decision. If someone has undergone a miraculous change and I miss out on a good relationship with them, I'm fine with that risk. They had their chances and they blew it. There's tons of people in the world who deserves a first chance to be part of my life above someone probably not deserving a 100th chance.

No to the whoever asked about the grandparents idea. They're not owed DGC, they're not a toy for the narcs to play with. People who haven't had extended family might feel a little sad about it in a vague general way but they don't miss specific people they've never met or barely knew. Don't give them the chance to fuck up your DC. Just because they "might" be a good grandparent. If they're not, it's too damn late by then isn't it. Not worth the risk.

It's also not possible to be NC with someone who you're facilitating a relationship with your DC. You're going to see them and get messages off them, they're going to say nasty shit to you from time to time even if not all the time, you will hear about their antics from DC. That's not NC.

User543211

I would strongly urge you to
keep your mother well away from your children and do not facilitate a relationship between them . If she is too toxic for YOU to deal with it’s the SAME deal for your children. It is not possible to have a relationship with a narcissist and they do get worse with age because any authority figures they liked or were afraid of have died off.

Toxic parents more often than
not become toxic as grandparents too. Please take heed.

@User543211 you don't have to be fair to her. You only have to do right by you and your kids. Be fair towards yourself.

Why risk it and 'wait and see' if a proven narcissist will treat your kids better all of a sudden and not put a divide between you. Might as well push them out onto the road and see if they get run over. You don't need proof. It's simply too dangerous.

One more thought @User543211 if you feel your kids aren't safe around your mother and won't let them have a relationship it has nothing to do with being unfair actually. The accountability should be with her. Unfairness has something of 'poor mum doesn't deserve it'. She'd simply have to accept the consequences of her actions.

I get it though because we always are concerned with wether or not we are exaggerating etc. Gaslighting ourselves. You had all the training.

@Twatalert

Is this typical then? I always feel like I'm not believed and feel as though I need proof or evidence to back things up? This effects my daily life. I'm like this at work too where I'm guarded about what I say.