August 2024 - But we took you to Stately Homes!

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007.

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwaite
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

@Happyfarm I feel the same, that I have done well for myself but did not know if for many years. I lived in survival mode for 30 years, but managed to do uni, hold down a job, get paid enough to live comfortably. I left my country at 25 with just a suitcase, no job, nowhere to live and I literally made it. I managed to get away from my relatives. I did so much therapy and finally get to a point where I think I will never be depressed again or have frequent panic attacks. Where I can see that my emotional flashbacks will hopefully reduce to a point that they are no longer life limiting. I think I have created a pretty good life for myself when I had very poor conditions growing up.

Well done on renovating your house. I really want to see the wallpaper now, ha!

I have so much respect for anyone going on this journey to try and remove themselves from relatives and heal. It is incredibly difficult, and often takes so much and so many attempts to do, and it is so so courageous!

there was a brilliant boat rocking analogy on here a few months ago that explains all.this so brilliantly. Hopefully someone more technical than me can post it again. it might help.

oh I so relate. My mother just can't help it. The constant veiled criticisms and implied failures really wear you down. Even when they don't say it outloud I know what she is thinking and that is even worse. I wish I could just let rip sometimes and get it all out but we dont do honest communication at all.

wow well done ! And yes we should stand up for and be proud of ourselves. We have absolutely earned it .

Oh I have the overriding feeling sometimes of telling them all about themselves. I have the script in my head but it would make me look unhinged! We don’t do honest conversations in my family either, we mostly now do ooo it’s cold out isn’t it and that’s the depth I’ll go now.

@Happyfarm @flapjackfairy oh my god, I sometimes too wish I could just tell them about the dysfunction I see. How messed up my upbringing was, that there is a narc in the family and that everyone else is subservient to this narc. But it would only confirm their point that I am crazy and I'd look completely stupid and just regeret it all.

As I see it they live on a different planet to me. The difference though is that I have lived on both planets, whilst they never left their's. I know I live on the nicer planet, but they think their's is the one to be on.

I read a quote that the only thing a child should need to chase is their dreams. I can’t imagine what my life would be now if chasing approval and love wasn’t the most important. It’s why at 41 I want to stop this stupid narrative. Bloody C.F.S is really getting in the way and it’s a constant reminder of what I’ve been through. But then I remind myself that many people carry baggage from childhood that they don’t realise and don’t live an authentic life because of this. Perhaps it’s a blessing going forward knowing what you carry and how to live authentically.

I've only read to page 4 so lots to still read but just wanted to come on and say hi.

Struggling with my relationship with my mum at the moment and close to going completely NC. Currently LC and she's giving me the silent treatment.

Also wondering if anyone else's mum does this but if I tell my mum I like something or want something, she'll do it first... But only big stuff.

When I was early 20's I went to New York with my then boyfriend and came back raving about it and how I loved it and I when the time came, I wanted to go to back and get my engagement ring from Tiffany's.

Fast forward a few years, she announced her engagement (I was single) and guess where she went to buy her engagement ring... 🙄

I can’t do any of this anymore.
Do any of you just get complete overwhelm that this is your life?
I can’t take anymore, and I don’t see a way out to escape my family.
I have panic attacks but I think it’s because I feel so suffocated and my body feels it IYSWIM.
I live in a small town and my toxic family surround me so 9/10 I see at least one of them or someone who knows them every day.
We made a plan to leave, chose a town to move to, fuelled by someone who replied to me on here. Then my DH started telling people (even though we agreed not to) and I felt suffocated all over again.
My family deliberately stalk me because they know it’s a trigger for me. And now my mind is in a panic that they will do that even if we move.
Has anyone successfully moved away? How?

I went NC in 2014 initially and we then moved far away in 2017. It made a big difference to get away from them. My mum was a total suffocating toxic stalker. However I did get homesick as we’d moved too far, so we moved back south but made sure I’m at least 90 mins away from my parents & family. In my experience it’s much better to move away as you can live your own life away from them. Yes they can still cause agro by text/phone but you can block those. It takes a lot more effort for them to turn up if at least 90 mins away, plus you have your town, life and identity away from them all. I highly recommend it.

I can’t do any of this anymore.
Do any of you just get complete overwhelm that this is your life?

Yes, frequently. Which is why I will one day end up completely NC I think.

I successfully moved away. I was single though so nobody I had to trust to keep my secrets. On that subject I'm a firm believer that we all have it in us to create our own happiness, therefore we can all be happy, therefore if a particular relationship interferes with my ability to create my own happiness then it's not the right relationship. I'd rather be happy alone than miserable together. So in your shoes I'd be issuing DH with an ultimatum and it wouldn't be an empty threat - he needs to show loyalty to you and keep this secret, otherwise you need to go off an make your happiness without him. Unpopular opinion, I'm sure!

So I did it gradually, without realising. It started in my teens, never inviting friends home. It continued in my 20s, with parents not even knowing who my friends were. Identity away from the family, as someone else said. It was subconscious, I had no idea I was doing it. It progressed in my 30s to putting them on an information diet when chatting in person and stopping my social media presence when they started stalking me on there, so they know almost nothing about anything important now.

Circumstances necessitated a hurried home move and as I sat in my new place, surrounded by boxes, I felt at peace knowing nobody could turn up on my doorstep and distract me from unpacking and I resolved not to pass on my address until I'd finished. As the days passed, it slowly dawned on me that I could easily keep it that way. So I told only close friends (the kind who we visit each other) my new address.

My family don't know my friends, have never met them and never will. They'll never know my address unless I tell them, I just keep batting their questions away. I don't care what they think. None of them would visit (other than once to snoop round the place so they can gossip about it or in one case so they could stalk me in person if I went NC) so they don't need my address.

Jesus why are these people so hateful. Some of them sound extremely malicious. What on earth has gone wrong with them.

@Happyfarm

It's crazy isn't it.

I on one hand get comfort that I'm not alone and people understand what goes on on this thread. Then on the other hand it's heartbreaking the things we have to do.

I wish I had been as brave as you when I was younger and struck out on my own before I had a family of my own.

I am NC with my family of origin, but it makes no difference where I live. I see at least one of them every day smirking at me.

I’ve allowed them to effect me so deeply I have very little of me left. Rather than grey rock them, I became a living grey rock. My world is so small. They’ve got exactly what they wanted. I hide away like a snail in its shell. It’s rather pathetic.

I need to leave this town but I’m scared of uprooting my children. They have lives here even if I do not.

I have very little of me left.

Here's the thing. You are in there. If you escape their clutches you'll be safe enough to come back out, gradually.

People move home with DC all the time for various reasons. Feeling destroyed by your FOO is enough of a reason.

They'll be off to university soon enough building a whole new life anyway. Doing it once before in their childhood isn't going to harm them in any way.

@SamAndAnnie Thank you for the reply.
I worry that they might find it hard to make friends elsewhere.

Life is just passing me by here though. I just exist really, and I know I can’t carry on like this.

They are more resilient than we think but I completely understand your situation.

I am slowly making changes.

The problem is we're so pre-programmed to be how we are and act in a certain way, it's difficult but NOT impossible to get out of the mindset they have instilled in us.

The posters on this thread all experience this in different ways and to different degrees but we all understand and you will always have support here.

I think a big problem for me is I attract back-stabber types like a magnet. It’s very hard to trust people now. I think I don’t even trust my children not to grow up and do the same thing.
Its why my family of origin feel like such a threat to me. Everyone betrays me in the end, so why wouldn’t my children pick them? I wouldn’t make them choose, but my family would.

I just feel like giving up.

I’m sorry this sounds awful and your family sound unhinged. I don’t have any answers. It’s just beyond me why or how people get like this. I struggle with sharing a child with my narc ex. It’s just damage control and constant management and trying to teach her so she has a chance of growing up decent. I sometimes feels that once a narc has been in your life you can never truly leave. Sorry that’s sounds very negative. These people can make us feel so crazy.

It’s very true though isn’t, it? It’s like getting a tic imbedded in your skin and not being able to remove the head.
Im sorry you are in the same position. It’s so hard to protect our children from these people.

I don't have close friends in my adult life either, tried when I was younger but found that I was often drawn in by people who took advantage because I was still very firmly in people pleaser mode. I would get very hurt when I realised it was all one way and the friendships would end badly. I've found that I like my own company. I tend towards superficial, casual friendships now and that's best for me. It does worry me though - my mother always struggled with friendships too and I suspect looked to me to fill that gap, and I can't. I don't want to end up leaning on my own kids when they're adults for the same reason.

I've tried to parent them how I wish I had been parented, and I hope that's enough that they won't cut contact in the future, but if they need to, I will respect it.

Struggling today

It's been three months since my mother attacked me for the final time

How long does it take to feel normal or okay with the decision to go NC

I know it's early days ... but I'm desperate for a moment of peace

@HeadacheEarthquake Hang in there. What exactly is the struggle? Guilt?

Remember that most days aren't the same, some will be difficult and others just a bit less difficult for a while.

Can you find something nice to do for yourself? What would feel like a treat? Tiny things, nothing huge. Just something to be good to yourself.

For me when I went NC with my father it was immediate. But I think I had disconnected from him emotionally a long time before. All I was waiting for was the practical opportunity to do it.

One thing I often remind myself of is that feelings are real, but that doesn't make them true. It is normal to disconnect from a parent who treats you badly. Lots of people do it. If this was happening to a friend, what would you tell them?

The guilt/obligation can be a difficult one to shake (dealing with it myself today) but I find it helps to think through it practically. What decisions have I made, were my reasons for making them properly thought through and valid, and am I actually responsible for that person? Would I expect others to be responsible for me in the same way?

Feelings can be an absolute pain the arse! I read a quote that we only grow to fit the environment we live in. So if we live in a fish tank we will only grow to fit that. If we move ourselves to the ocean then we will be amazed at the growth we can achieve. Sometimes our fear and feelings can deter us from some real growth and an amazing life. When we live in this small negative world that has been created for us by our parents and that we bound ourselves to we really stop growth. Our parents were supposed to ready us to go and be big sharks in the ocean not tiny sharks in the fish tank. We need to do this for ourselves and it’s hard but it’s definitely possible and we are born with all the tools we need if we can uncover them beneath all the shit! They keep us stuck in these tanks with threats that’s we aren’t good enough but they are wrong!