August 2024 - But we took you to Stately Homes!

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007.

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwaite
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

If it were easy then generational trauma would be eradicated. It’s bloody hard breaking cycles. My only hope is that I change the path for my own kids. So yeah probably will forget everything I’ve said next week lol!

I just saw a brilliant saying on a Facebook post.

" just because they throw a pitch doesn't mean you have to swing ! "

I like a pithy phrase that inspires me.

Were any of you abused because of your parents narcissistic behaviour?
My mum is the endless victim that my family pander to. My dad is wonderful but has abandoned me over and over to bow to her whims. She isn’t bad person, she is broken though. Generations of abuse in my family.
I believe it stopped with me because I was raised to never complain and to always hide my feelings. I was also hated by my mother for being pretty as a teen and shamed for it.
ultimately it led to vulnerability that predatory men could see and I was horrifically abused by multiple people. One for many years and have lasting physical damage
I had a lot of therapy for the abuse but now back in therapy to deal with my parents role in it. I am nc with my mum and low with my dad. I’ve moved miles away for safety from abusers but distance from parents helps also.
It’s the being abandoned. It’s being forced to choose myself because they wouldn’t.
Its a lot to unpack and a lot of grief to move through.

@Chipsahoy I wonder if we were just like a perfect storm for predatory partners. We were desperate for someone to fill the void and love us. The love bombing stage felt so amazing. Here was someone who is going to take all the pain away. Only they were a wolf in sheep’s clothing. I know many people with neglected childhoods who met lovely men who’ve been lucky. They are continually loved and treasured. Such bad luck to have met an abusive one. In my early age I walked away from stable relationships because I found them boring. Sometimes I feel I was similar to a narcissist only I grew and I was never abusive.

I was fortunate not to have an abusive partner. For me it was child sexual exploitation. Like the Rotherham gangs sort of thing.
I was definitely desperate for love and attention but I think for me personally, more than anything, I had learned to always put others first and never say no. I was taught to do as I was told and never ever show distress. I haven’t cried properly since I was very small because I learned to hide it so as not to distress my mother.

Hi, yes I’ve had my fair share of really toxic relationships, one that left me mentally destroyed for many years.. in fact I’m still not sure I’m over it and that was 26 years ago!
I was abandoned to boarding school at the age of 6, a year after my parents divorced. When I needed love and stability I was discarded. My mother met a rich older man and the started leaving me at school for weekends so they could go on holiday.
my father ceased contact when I was about 13 and I’ve not really had any contact with him since.
i moved out of ‘home’ at 18 and my mother never helped me financially even when I need £20 for food.
she’s always bought be crap presents for my birthday that have zero thought to them but expects a big fuss on her birthday or Mother’s Day.
I’m married to a nice man now and we have two children. My mother can’t help starting arguments with me about things she knows I don’t agree with, she puts me down in front of my children and passes it off has she ‘was just having a laugh’.. most recently she’s been posting things on Facebook to make a point (around me not calling her back when she phones) which I find so childish. I called her out on this and she denied it was about me.. again.. no accountability.. it’s too draining so I cut her out last week. Now I have my aunt (her sister) calling me to speak about my menopause.. obviously because my mother is blaming that for my going rogue on her.
abuse comes in many forms.
The awful thing is my mothers health is terrible and she probably hasn’t got that long on this earth.. all her own doing due to heavy drinking and smoking, things she replaced my childhood with.
I guess the only way to try and break the cycle is to go NC and try and heal all the damage that had been done.. but it’s hard when that is likely to take years..
After many toxic relationships with men I realised I had become quite savvy to toxic traits and was able to discard those people before they had a chance to hurt me.

Yes, I wanted ‘that’ family life. Not the walking on eggshells one filled with shame and humiliation and fear. I didn’t know then but I know now that my adolescent wasn’t nice. I fell massively for the first man who showed interest and didn’t give up. I know now that was love bombing. I thought he could offer me a safe, secure life. I didn’t care he was so much older than me. I turned a blind eye to the early abuse, I just needed to get away from my mother.
Frying pan into the fire. It took me years to get over him.

I also went from the frying pan to the fire. I so desperately didn’t want to move home I moved straight in with a narcissist. I had no idea at the time why I didn’t want to move back home after finishing studying I just really didn’t want to. I thought he was my knight in shining armour. He said he was but he really wasn’t.

I'm feeling really confused on relationships and dynamics.

I started thinking about my past work colleague for some reason. We were friendly but not friends as such. Then there was a change at work and some animosity built. To cut to the chase, she ended up being quite nasty to me at work, ignoring me, bad-mouthing me and sending messages on social media from accounts not in her name. (This person had been spoken to about her behaviour several times in relation to me and 4 others at different times). The 4 chose to leave rather than make a formal complaint but I was urged to stay and complain. The end result was nothing was done so I also left.

6 years later we bumped into each other and then my new/current employer received a terrible complaint about me. Fortunately it was easily disregarded as was factually incorrect.

I keep thinking if she's still being vindictive after 6 years what is going on? Was this the finale act or more to come?

Are we just pre-programmed to attract this type of person?

I've had a few toxic/abusive long term relationships fuelled by desperation, the need to be loved and not recognising I was just repeating the same pattern I had with my mum. Also a long string of short relationships, with fairly decent guys that didn't feel right because they were normal. In fact , I dumped OH twice because he was being "too" nice and I didn't know what to do with him. Luckily, he was patient enough to let me get my head straight. We've been together 15 years.

@NowImNotDoingIt I’m so pleased you got your happy ever after xx

@JustLaura Your ex colleague sounds deranged- no doubt fuelled by jealousy. Block every avenue where she can access information on you. If you see her again, go the other way. Shame on your ex employer allowing this to go on x

I had a very volatile relationship with narcissistic traits on full display from me. It was the kind of relationship where each threatens to break up etc and you just argue all the time, then have a couple of great days and it starts all over again. We were both messed up but I thought I needed to find a way to make it work and that there is a way and I just hadn't found it yet.

Then he broke up with me for the last time. It took me YEARS to be ok again. In hindsight I can see it all very clearly, incl how I behaved exactly like my mother. It was an awful realisation but thankfully it was enough to become aware and I could stop a lot of the dysfunctional behaviour quite quickly. So I'm definitely not a narcissist, thank god. But I still carry a lot of shame about this episode of my life.

I now have something similar at work. I feel on egg shells, always on my guard, questioning every aspect of the work I am submitting around an older male colleague. We do the same kind of work, but he behaves like he knows it all, questions my work, changes my work without consulting me, adds to my work and then does it wrong and it goes to the client wrong because I wasn't made aware he changed whatever i submitted. I'm at a stage where I feel I need to proof to other ppl including my boss what happened, collect evidence and convince them of the impact it has on me. I know I'm being abused and I fall into the same trap of trying to make other people believe me and thinking 'there must be a way to work this out'. It never works unless they have an understanding of abuse. I need to change my responsibilities so I have less or nothing to do with this man.

I think that’s where our thought patterns learned from childhood become unhealthy. Other people would stand straight up and say what they f are you doing. They either get in trouble or they say f u and leave and get another job knowing that they good enough and can’t be arsed to put up with it. We go into over thinking mode, self doubt mode, solution finding mode or gather evidence mode so people can validate us as we aren’t confident to say f u with only our self belief backing us up. We are afraid of making noise and afraid that our noise won’t be heard and therefore we aren’t enough. I don’t think we are special, there’s arseholes and selfish narcs everywhere. They just have worked out that we won’t make noise so they get away with it. They only get away with it whilst we stay quiet and stuck in these unhealthy survival behaviours. Make a noise!!!

@Happyfarm I have made noise about this multiple times just over the past year. I call him out 90pc of the time. I have spoken with bosses and they have actually raised it with him. (Just like I tried to get my mother see sense and change when I was a child).

He still continues and I often had the sick feeling that he enjoys it. Just like I could see the pleasure in my mother's face when she abused me. The joy in her face when she could see I felt hurt or angry. Personality disorders on full show.

Maybe time to move on then. Same situation as trying to explain to our parents, falls on deaf ears so all we can do is move on, protect your peace. I have to say it’s one of the good things (sometimes I wish I was still oblivious) of having therapy and learning about behaviour. We can spot the little nuggets everywhere!

buggers not nuggets lol!

Do you think that Narcissistic mothers like it if one of their children wants to be exactly like them? Wants to follow their example of how to behave, wants to have the same dreams and the same hobbies and the same outlook on life. Does this make them feel like some kind of guru? That child is more superior because the mum thinks her views are the right ones? I ask because I’ve always viewed myself as I trend setter not a follower, I ask questions and won’t follow regardless. I am pushed out all the time because I ask questions about why my family don’t have their own dreams.

Yes - my GC sister is basically a carbon copy of my mum…

Yes.. my mother absolutely hates that im
not politically aligned with her.. she’ll even say ‘but you grew up in our household, how can you think that’ she brings up political things all the time over the table to goad me into an argument.. which I won’t give her anymore because she’s an absolute bigot..

One of the arguments she had with me was that I “expect” her son to change nappies and asked in front of her could he do it because I was busy. She was absolutely disgusted, she said it was a “pink job”. I said not in my house it isn’t. I expect him to look after his children so I can also do things, like work, see friends, as I do for him. She thinks my job is to aid him and I see us as equals. The other DIL is a brilliant housewife, she does it all and never complains, the other brother does 0 house or child related things. I think because she was so young coming into the family and so young having kids she has taken on the identity and values of the mum. Sod that!

@Happyfarm do you think you had the misfortune to become her scapegoat? Presumably she doesn't have a scapegoat at home now but narcs need a scapegoat to project their shit onto them.

My mother is the same, very misogynistic towards her SiL. Gossipping behind her back how she 'should have cooked the husband (GC son) dinner after such a long day at work.' Thing is SiL also works full-time. I don't think she could ever win. They will always have someone who whatever they do will never do it right. I tried so hard to please my mother growing up and to fit in. Never enough.

Unfortunately I think I’ve been assigned that role. But I don’t like my MIL. Since being abused and having therapy I have decided I match energy. I’ve given it a good go, tried to be nice, done nice things but I’m not begging. I don’t really speak to her anymore because it always ended up with me feeling shit after contact and wondering what I’m doing wrong. She won’t even let me photograph her with our kids, I know because I can sense it that she absolutely despises me, she can’t even give me eye contact face to face. It isn’t nice but her opinion of me no longer matters to me.

I’m a long time reader and recognise myself in so much of these stories. My own mum goes NC with me for periods at a time, as punishment for the most minute things - but lately it’s because I tried to set some boundaries. She has gone into complete overdrive apparently, crying uncontrollably for weeks. It’s so bizarre.

My problem is, my dad is quite frail and unable to leave the house nowadays apart from very short trips using a walking aid. I live abroad and am a single mum so I don’t visit often due to finances and the expense. For years we’ve visited for one week in the summer, staying in a hotel locally. The expense is crippling but I do it for dad and my children who adore both of my parents (she’s doing a pretty good job with my kids to be fair but I watch like a hawk).

Anyway, I am now unsure what to do. She’s my dad’s gatekeeper. She has now said she will leave town when we next come to visit. Apparently this is because I was ‘unhelpful’ last time we visited. For context, we would have 6 evening meals at theirs during our annual visit and of course help was repeatedly offered but declined.

I would LOVE to cut her out but there’s no way I can do this whilst my dad is alive. I tried to very mildly grey rock her during this last visit and this is the result.

How do you manage your narcissistic mother when they are gatekeeping other family members?

I’m also pretty sure she’s showing early signs of dementia but nation trying to suggest to her that she’s any less than perfect goes down like a lead balloon so this is yet another issue to add to the mix.

In my experience, no. Both mother and daughter complain about their respective daughter's flaws. I frequently want to tell both of them to go take a look in the mirror! They seem oblivious to it.

mumof3 I wouldn't bother trying to appease her. Let her go off in a sulk next time you visit (bet she doesn't anyway) and leave you to enjoy a week with your dad.