August 2024 - But we took you to Stately Homes!

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007.

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwaite
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

@Twatalert yeah I’ve felt so much better this last month. Not worrying about the horrible texts / calls coming in. And my partner says it’s been nice that he hasn’t had to listen to me crying on the phone about something my mom’s done / said. He says it’s hard to hear cuz he works away all week and can’t help me. But also my son sees me upset which is nice that he hasn’t had to witness that.
it deffo felt like my boundary had been broken. But the guilt was so overwhelming. When I met her it was hard as she was in a good mood, trying to laugh and joke so when I was being serious it kind of wasn’t serious too.
I’ve just told my dad to let her know I’m not going to her therapy session with her and I’m going back to NC. I’ve just come off the phone to my sister who has said today my moms told her she is having suicidal thoughts I asked why she said because she’s trying to make friends with her kids and no one cares. Again this makes me so guilty. I’ve been in deep sad places before and it hurts my heart to think that someone in my family would feel the same, but then I have to think does she actually feel like that?

@Tinkerbell678 hopefully you can address the guilt etc with your therapist, if you currently have one?

You are not responsible for your mother's suicidal thoughts nor are you obliged to support her through this, providing it's true. Hopefully your sister has referred her to mental health services. I'm sure they will act if they think she's a danger to herself. She should also mention it to her therapist because there is a protocol the therapist needs to follow.

You cannot make anyones suicidal thoughts go away. You aren't required to abandon your own well being for theirs. You cannot currently help as you need mental health support yourself and need NC to look after yourself. This is perfectly justifiable. A bit of guilt is normal. But if guilt actually makes you do things there is something off.

@Raggycrow in case you're still awake. Just to let you know there's someone around to hear, and commiserate.
I imagine that many people on this thread can empathise with what you're saying. We wouldn't be here if we didn't have similar stories.
To all the damaged, but hopefully on the road to (radical) acceptance folks reading, hello.

Raggycrow, at least you are angry . It's an important step towards recovery. Nurture that anger, use it to fight against notions of powerlessness. It's not you with the problem, it's them. Get on with living your best life.

@Raggycrow

I can understand and appreciate what you're saying as will the majority reading this board.

It's a case of being 'damned if I do, damned if I don't' sometimes. I do what's right for me on a case by case basis now.

I too recall many bad memories and I try to distract myself every time now.

I am slowly being able to separate my own life.

Vent away whenever you like on this board. We hear you. We get it.

Thanks @KeeponReading and @JustLaura x

I wouldn't worry about your mum listening to the truth because I doubt she'll hear it even if she's sat right next to you.

I would probably write a letter to the therapist and send it to them myself. I'd make sure there's nothing in there that I wouldn't be happy for mum to know. I'd explain what happened and why I'm no contact. Mainly from a perspective that if she's trying to heal and is incapable of seeing/telling the truth, that makes it harder for the therapist to help her, so I'd be giving information to the therapist so they have a fuller picture so they can perhaps better help her. I wouldn't have a problem with that because if she does improve herself it's better for anyone who comes into contact with her, so I'd see my letter as a good deed to any future people she befriends, a way of me making the world a slightly better place. It could improve your own life too if the therapist can make her see that contacting someone who is NC is inappropriate.

I wouldn't go to a joint therapy session with an abusive person, which is what a toxic mother that has harmed you is. That smacks of her paying lip service to repairing the relationship, but it'll just be a public performance for the therapist where your mum gets to play the apologetic victim who deserves to be forgiven by nasty and mean, grudge-holding, you. A way of pressurising you and drawing you back into a bad relationship with her.

Your sister, do you want to see her? You'd have to keep your privacy and assume anything told to sister will be told to mum. Would you be ok/able to do that? I'd be telling her she has to leave the subject of mum alone, no comments about the situation, no mentions about mum/mum's life and definitely no pressure or guilt tripping. A friendship would have to be based on what common ground is between the two of you. Could she do that? You'd have to agree to disagree on the subject of you being NC with your mum, which includes not wanting to hear about her. So if sister can't accept that then she can't accept you and you can't have a relationship under those circumstances. I'd be happy to have some kind of relationship with sister, but not with sister-the-flying-monkey, so for me it would all depend on how/who sister wants to be.

bornintohell you're welcome. I hope you can build a better life soon

Had an interesting weekend. Spoke to one of my friends mothers about my recent argument with my mum.

one thing my mum always says to me is that out of all her children, I’m the most disappointing. I never met her expectations. In terms of job she thinks I’m capable of more and that I am quite disappointing for her.

she also thinks I’m a horrible mother and fat and don’t live up to her standard in any way. The list goes on forever.

anyway I told all this to my friends mother and it actually made her cry. She had tears in her eyes. She said that she only tells her children how proud she is of them.

she told me all the things I had longed for my own mother to tell me. That I am a hero to her having raised my kids in difficult circumstances, that I was a fabulous friend to her daughter and out of all her friends I was the one that consistently shows up. That I was clever and had a job and a degree I should be proud of. That my son in particular was a credit to me and he was a wonderful child and a great support to her young grandson when he needed it.

my family just isn’t normal. This… this lady and they way she treats her family… that’s what it should be like.

@Froggerz It’s bittersweet when you are exposed to what a mother should be like, isn’t it? When you know that is how it should be, and how you won’t get that from your own mother. I’ve had moments like that with women. I find it hard though too. I liken it to a child being let into a sweet shop and looking around, being given one delicious sweet, then being shut back outside again looking through the glass, because the sweets are all for another child. That’s kind of how it feels to me anyway.

Im glad she was able to give you the validation you deserve, and you were able to experience that warmth. The reinforcement of there is absolutely nothing wrong with you and everything wrong with your family.

I’m struggling again today.
I had the misfortune of my path crossing with one of my relatives friends today. I think the smear campaign is back up and running because there was lots of talking behind hands and glaring at me. This then turned into staring at me and smirking in a really obvious way. It was very mean girl, I’d like to say the people involved were 10 years old, but no, these were fully grown 40- something adults.
I wanted the floor to open up and swallow me whole, I felt so uncomfortable, but I suppose that was their intention?

I posted a while back under a different name here.

I made quite a big step and have detached myself from my sibling. He has issues and takes drugs and is on the verge of trouble again. I'm the one who is put on to watch out for him and I'm over it. When I speak out I am met with abuse. Apparently we are all supposed to nod and agree with him.

He is my only sibling so it feels quite strange. But I am over it. It's wierd as my body feels so much lighter, it instantly felt lighter.

Omg just had a text row with my mother.. I called her out on some poor behaviour and told her I was.. this was her response.

‘Well that just confirmed everything i already new. You’re calling out bad behaviour, who the hell do you think you are talking to. If i want a joke with my sister on facebook it has absolutely nothing to do with you OR Ben’

the laugh she was supposedly having with her sister was a post on Facebook about hoping that ‘when she dies she hopes we don’t wish she had a phone in heaven as we never call anyway’.. she is ill and has poor health so it’s not really funny. I hadn’t called her back that exact day as I was taking my daughter out for dinner after her first day at secondary.. the post was aimed at me.. not her sister. I know my mother well enough to know she was digging at me because she does it a lot!
ive ignored this last message because once again she can’t just admit she knows she’s been caught out.. I’ve blocked her on socials because there is a long history of narcissistic behaviour and I can’t put up with it anymore.. but now I have the added horrible feeling of knowing she isn’t that well and being left with the guilt when she dies..

I have my birthday coming up and it's playing on my mind a lot. I thought I'd finally have an ok birthday, but I worry they will contact me and my guilt will be huge.

I worry they send me flowers or so, which will go straight into the bin. I worry they see this as an opportunity to get me back in with a fake apology or fake concern. I just worry I won't see clearly and will do something stupid (like respond to anything).

My grandmother is old but nasty. I used to call her on my birthday so she can congratulate me as she struggles with phones. Last year, on my birthday, she had a go at me about something. It was awful to be spoken to like that on my birthday, or any other day. I will not contact her again and it is playing on my mind what they say about me. How they talk about me and how they are the victims in their narrative and I will forever be the unreasonable one.

All I ever wanted was to feel loved on my birthday and to feel like people made an effort. It never happened. Now I just want them to leave me alone and get the fuck out of my mind.

They are already ruining every day you live running up to your birthday let alone the actual day as your mind is fixed on them. You’ve got to train that brain, sometimes it’s not on our side unfortunately. Start switching the narrative when they pop in your brain and it’s starts ruminating. Do something else to enjoy yours days instead. I started scrapbooking. I am building a life that I want and I think about things I want when my brain goes to that spot. I actually sometimes say out loud oh no no no not today brain and change my thoughts. So what if they send flowers, so what if they make contact, they are just people. We waste so much time thinking about occasions that might happen and if they do they are so short. If they have a go, oh well they aren’t important anyway. Make your days yours so that they are nothing important. It really does work, well it is for me. I’d pass the flowers on. They don’t have the power to ruin flowers.

@Happyfarm Yes you are right. I do manage to let go of my thoughts usually, but this is starting to consume me. Probably time to use some of the strategies I have learnt but not used in a while because I did not need them! It's shit. I am already at the stage at which 'doing something nice for myself' does not appeal and I lose interest in things again.

I get angry at the thought of flowers, so I might have to bin them to let out my anger. Possibly I will have to rip them apart too. I

Don’t let them make you angry. You haven’t even had them yet and you are already angry. I’m not sure how to get to the feeling of indifference but don’t give them this power over you. Can you go away maybe and arrange something so you have the control over the day and you know who you will see?

@Kelwar I binned mine on FB years ago. Once I friended her she spent an evening going through liking everything I'd posted for as far back as she could, apart from one post where I swore. I was creeped out when I realised why I had loads of notifications on my phone.

She then phoned up to shout at me over something I posted about the DS did that she didn't fully understand the context of, but decided it was bad parenting (a bit fucking rich coming from someone who brought her two oldest up in a country going through a bitter civil war when she could have taken them somewhere safer, but I digress!).

I realised that giving her social media access was just going to be used against me. She then moaned repeatedly I deleted her and when I had the big blow up with her recently she used being deleted off FB as a whataboutery excuse for some of her own terrible behaviour. I've got no doubt if she had been on there she'd just have used it as a tool to make digs. Life's too short.

Hi everyone. Hope you are all well.
@Twatalert I'm so sorry for your situation, it's like they're ruining your birthday already by taking up all of that headspace. I've got no practical advice as I'd feel the exact same. For me, I feel like I'll need go through everything once (especially events like birthdays and Christmas etc) before I know how to deal with it again in the hope that next time it's better, but that thought is also quite depressing.

So I completely failed in my first attempt at NC. I didn't block my mum and ended up in a few weeks of back and forth messages. Usual BS - me trying to explain my feelings, her fake apologies, blaming, gaslighting, constantly claiming to be a good mother and saying how much she loves me. It all came to head on the w/e as my younger sis (15, adopted) messaged me (straight after a message I sent to my mum) to tell me to stop it with my bullshit, and that I was pathetic for always bringing up the past (obvs NM and her DH have said this in front of her). She also said my behaviour is making her feel worse as she's feeling suicidal. She was home alone. I tried calling my mum but couldn't get through (this 100% meant she was at the pub with her DH as it's the only place they would be on a sat eve with no signal). I chatted to my sis until mum returned home, I told mum what sis had said to me. Her response? Yes DD is suicidal, you are hurting her, how could I do this to her, she misses my kids so much etc. I said if she's telling you this, why are leaving her home alone to go to the pub? Being adopted, sis has a social worker so yesterday I called social services to tell them about her feeling suicidal (I used to work in safeguarding). I messaged mum and told her I had informed SS in the hope it might get them to offer counselling/therapy etc. I asked what did the GP say, and she said she hasn't taken her to the gp yet. I mean WTAF. You're saying you know feels like that (which you are saying is my fault) and you haven't taken her to the GP?? Obviously me contacting SS has hugely pissed her off and she hasn't messaged me since. What a mess. I love her so much but if she wasn't involved I could just walk away. There's a whole other layer of guilt attached to me going NC (I already told sis she could come over whenever she wanted, she said no as it would upset mum so she's already being manipulated/controlled/guilt-tripped by her).
My brother is coming over tonight to 'talk about everything'. He is a complete believer of 'but she's our mum' and I know he's going to want me to 'fix it'. What do I even say to him? I have no idea how to manage it and have felt sick thinking it about it today. I don't want to just cut him off without speaking but I'm also wary of saying too much to him.
Sorry for the long one. I need to find a therapist ASAP!

@Happyfarm indifference takes time. It's my fear speaking. I don't feel safe even though they can't get to me physically and they can't make me speak to them. I wonder again if I'm 'doing something to them' even though I know I'm not.

@User543211 agree, that's my theory. Last birthday had different boundaries and this one will have the strongest ones. I don't know what to expect from them and can't even be sure old stuff won't come up for me which I will then have to process.

Your situation sounds beyond complicated. Too many monkeys flying around. I would actually cancel the meeting with your brother tonight until you know how you want to proceed and what you want to say or not say and for you to get into a different state of mind for your advantage. Once you have decided you just repeat your point over and over again to him/them.

I don't know, at one stage I was prepared to lose the only person I care about. It hasnt come to this and I still can't be sure it won't happen. I just want peace. It sounds awful but maybe you have to decide between you and your sister 😒

Good advice from @Happyfarm

You do what YOU want to do and you can't go far wrong.

@Twatalert

The other scenario (happened to me), I spent 2 weeks worrying they'd try to spoil my birthday, contact me to be nasty, send me something sarcastic, do something just to press my buttons etc.

What happened?

Absolutely nothing.

They ignored me all day. On purpose of course! I had a lovely peaceful day! 😁

I often think that the worst part is the anticipation. That is the power they have over us. If we can get back control over our headspace then it makes a huge difference. I think I’ve got to a point now (and I’m 40) where I’ve just stopped caring. I make sure my days are happy and I make sure about what I think about. I have a pathetic family and in-laws, full of generational trauma. It’s not my problem anymore. I’m learning to take the emotion out of my thoughts, let go of my
fantasy idea of family and do what the hell I want to. If they aren’t happy for me then who cares. My family aren’t really as malicious as many on here. They are more the kind who align themselves with perfect sides of the family. I am a black sheep and I’m really proud of it.

My brother is coming over tonight to 'talk about everything'. He is a complete believer of 'but she's our mum' and I know he's going to want me to 'fix it'. What do I even say to him?

You say - whilst I'm happy to see you socially DB, I'm never going to discuss my relationship with our mother with you as it's not in the best interests of yours and mine's relationship with each other. If you ever try to mention my relationship with our mother to me, I will have to ask you to leave. With that decision, I've changed my mind about your visit tonight to "talk about everything", it's not something I'm willing to do, so please don't come. I'll see you another time for a social visit.

Then if he shows up you don't answer door/phone. He's being a FM and you don't have to put up with it. If he sends you abusive messages don't respond. If he ever gives a genuine apology where he takes accountability for his nastiness in sending you abusive FM messages, then maybe you decide to give him another chance. If he doesn't apologize or it's a half apology full of justification for what he did, then don't respond and block him. You'll have basically gone NC with him without planning it.

He doesn't have any rights to decide to come to your home for the purpose of harassing you into accepting someone else's abuse and apologising for things you haven't done, just to keep that person happy so he doesn't have to listen to them moaning. It's self serving and if he doesn't want to listen to the moaning one playing victim he needs to deal with that himself by getting some boundaries of his own, not by throwing you under the bus to appease them.

@Happyfarm

Exactly it!

I largely think I feel better as I've taken back control. It's still a struggle at times as I'm limited contact not no contact and nothing has really changed on their part, but I have changed.

I'm mid 40's and basically tired of all the drama they create.

Once my Parents have passed away, I will have no contact.

I do think the big hurdle will be when one of them passes away but as you say this may not actually happen.

I still debate if my sibling is the instigator or my Parents but I think that role switches depending on the situation.

Mine specifically try the 'feel sorry for me' routine but this continually is proven to be lies.

Only recently I've been able to listen to them and let It go.

I feel so much better and am also a proud black sheep!

I never want to be like they are.