August 2024 - But we took you to Stately Homes!

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007.

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwaite
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

@BornIntoHell

I hear you and understand a lot of what you've typed.

What has prompted their contact again?

I know it feels like the end of the world at times but it is NOT.

Do not let them grind you down.

I've recently started to come to terms with my narcissistic family issues.

I've made the decision to limit contact rather than no contact for myself not them BUT if anything further happens I may well have to go no contact.

Dance to your own tune not anyone else's.

@BornIntoHell you'll be far better with improved MH. If it continues to deteriorate that's not good for DC. Neither is being turned against you. I'd move. Whatever upheaval DC will experience by moving is leser IMO than the damage inflicted by your family. Just look what it's done to you! You don't have to stay around these toxic people forever, you can break free and find peace.

@BornIntoHell I know it is horrible when anxiety kicks in and you feel overwhelmed. . I just want to run away myself when it happens and the feeling of being trapped is overwhelming because where can you run too ? The foreboding aspect is the worst bit for me. Horrible!
But a lot of that is just the effects of adrenalin on your body and it doesn't mean any of your fears are going to come true .
I always find that having a plan even a long term one helps me feel a bit more in control so why not look at longer term solutions? Maybe it will be possible to move in a short while or maybe you need to report their harassment and take legal steps to block them if they continue with their abuse. Non if this should be necessary of course but you are not dealing with ordinary people here sadly.

@JustLaura One of my children have started high school and that seems to be what has prompted it. It feels like it’s the start of them carrying out their threat to get to my children.

@SamAndAnnie My worry is if we move my children will feel like they are be ripped away from their friends and will hate me for it, and it will play into the wider family’s hands. It’s not like the olden days where you move away and the problem is gone, eventually one day they will be just one click away on social media.
Moving within my own town wouldn’t work, because they have form for stalking me in the past. They would just follow my children home from school to find where we live.

@flapjackfairy They are all pretty clever about it. They do it in ways that are very deniable. They know exactly what they are doing. They know my triggers, and press just the right buttons. They have harassed me very badly in the past where I would have been able to report them, but stupidly didn’t. Since we had security cameras installed when they occasionally reappear they are more subtle. It’s just enough to effect me, but subtle enough that I can’t do anything about it, because it’s all deniable.

One person in the family in particular is extremely manipulative. She has always laid the seeds with people before she carries out the act. For example, in the past she has told people she is concerned about me (which couldn’t be further from the truth, and also no concern is warranted), then she will tell people she is “keeping an eye on me”, and that’s when she stalks me. Follows me everywhere. She turned up literally everywhere I went. I was (am) NC with her so it was horrendous. My DH asked her what she was playing at and she said ‘I don’t know what you mean, she’s paranoid. It’s a coincidence, I’ve got better things to do than follow you’. But she was, and it was obvious. We told people and she had got to them first. They said ‘I know, she’s so kind. Despite you going NC with her, she still worries about you’. It made my legs go to jelly. I felt so gaslit. But this is what it’s like.
She has got to so many people and has twisted everything.
I can’t even rebuild my life because they know so many people in this town, and if they don’t already know them they find a way to get to know them.
They have this amazing ability to charm people and muscle in.
I can’t take anymore. I have survived for so long. But that’s exactly what it is, survival. I don’t remember the last time I actually lived. They have so much control over me. I know it sounds ridiculous, but that’s what it’s like. If I’ve ever tried to stand up for myself they’ve twisted it and told people I’ve shown my true colours.
Theyve always lived their life how they want, but the minute I try to I’m labelled as selfish.
Everything about me has been picked apart over the years and criticised. Every normal choice I’ve made has been twisted into something else to stop me doing it.
I feel trapped and I see no way out. They are always going to be there one way or another and right now everything feels bleak.

Sorry for the rambling essay. It’s turned into a big brain dump.

Hi guys, I hope you’re all doing ok.. I read all your posts and it’s startling how similar our situations are. After a horrible childhood of many tears and now a mother with ailing health issues due to her heavy drinking and smoking she now wants me to be there for her. She has her 70th coming up soon and has said how she wants some surprises from us all, this makes me feel sick seeing as all my childhood birthdays were spent in boarding school and my 40th she turned up hungover and stayed for 2 hours before leaving.. I just can’t find it in myself to make her birthday nice. In fact I think she has a bloody cheek to ask for a nice birthday.
more recently we had a fall out over a dig she made at me infront of my husband and children.. this isn’t unusual btw.. but when I didn’t answer her call the other day because I was taking my daughter out for dinner on her first day of secondary.. she posted a thing on Facebook about people not answering her calls and that she hopes when she dies we don’t wish we had a phone to heaven.. I just can’t deaI with this passive aggressive nonsense anymore so I want to go NC with her and my brother. My brother can’t stand her either but for some reason is completely ignoring me. I suspect she has been bitching about me for weeks to him and now they are in cahoots about my menopausal situation and using it against me.. yes I have confided in both of them about my hormonal issues.. I’m a classic over sharer. So do I just ignore them now and block them or do I offer some kind of explanation? Thing is, my mother will never take accountability for any wrong doing so it seems pointless me giving them a reason as to why I’m making this decision. She will just scream at me and probably hang up.. she will 100% play the victim like she has her whole life.. I want to get on with my life with my children and I don’t have any want to look after her in her ailing older.
When I have had no contact with her in
the past I have been the happiest I’ve ever been. When she claws her way back the anxiety and unhappiness rears its ugly head. She is so bitter and angry now.. probably due to her own life choices but that is not my problem. She makes me feel like a horrible person and I’m really not.
I seem to have all the empathy that she and my brother are missing.. but I can’t deal with her anymore.
she even bought my 11 year old daughter into our most recent argument which I won’t stand for. My daughter comes first and always will.
My husband doesn’t like her and has said every aspect of her being in my life impacts the whole family because she makes me so unhappy.
problem is.. when she dies and I going to feel like a beast? I don’t deserve to feel the guilt.. and yet I know I will.

@Kelwar Im an over sharer also and I often feel like a complete idiot for sharing before figuring out if it’s someone healthy or not. It’s so hard when you just a decent human thinking everyone else is decent when they
aren’t. Unfortunately given the fact you are a normal healthy human I think you will have feelings that are contradictory. We are meant to love our parents and visa versa, it goes against all our human instincts to be in these situations. Sometimes I think it leaves us feeling like monsters because “we shouldn’t feel like this”. I keep many of my thoughts to myself now because I know I sound like a monster to the wrong ears. But you aren’t a beast at all. That’s the wrong people’s perception of us, that’s how they want us to think about ourselves. We are probably the most gentle and compassionate people you will ever meet. Don’t let them win. It’s a daily thought battle for me but I am so worthy and these people will not ruin this one life of mine!!! Tell yourself all the amazing things you are.

@kelwar I completely get the birthday thing. My parents spent every year for about 20 years, starting as soon as I was old enough to ditch, doing a month long holiday to my mums home country over my birthday. They'd get me some awful tat as a "special birthday present" that they'd obviously got in a sale or something when they were there (my weirdest ones were twine and hideous gold lame peep toe shoes).

I was going through repeat pregnancy losses and IVF at the time and I ended up having emergency surgery when they were away but asked other family members not to tell them, partly cos there was no point and also I couldn't handle the extra drama.

Anyway, I didn't moan and just got on with it and rationalised it as just not doing adult birthdays and being self sufficient, which I'm fine with.

Except now my dad is too ill to travel it turns out my mum actually does place a lot of importance on birthdays and expects a big fuss on hers.

It's been a week since she tried to phone and I'm enjoying the quiet. Fuck that noise.

I read this thread a lot and have Posted on the past but not sure if I deserve to be here.

• parents divorced when I was barely at school. Dad useless, moved away made new family. Mum remarried had more kids. Rarely speak to dad. Was a very toxic divorce and my time with him was limited. He seems quite nice so it’s a shame we never built on our relationship.
• I’ve always felt like black sheep. Nothing I do I’d good enough. From my kids, my house, my job, my wedding dress, my husband, my hobbies. My mum disapproved everything. She won’t even come in my house as it’s “dirty” my siblings say she is funny about them too and I should just accept it. Basically she’s told me, I never quite made her expectations (for what it’s worth, I’m a homeowner, have a degree and a job that is decent… over £50k, several beautiful kids, married)
• they are intrusive. When my mum looked after my house when I was on holiday they snooped at private financial info and “tidied” in places that were private.
• weve had various arguments. Mainly where I call her out then she never apologises and I somehow come out the bad guy. she makes things up about me telling other family members “you should see the messages frog sent me, so awful”
• recently fallen out with my siblings too. They seem to think I’m not happy and whilst that is true to some extent. Work is hard and I’m having a stressful medical issue with one of my kids. They’ve used that to make me feel crap. My house isn’t as clean, I’m not a good mum etc.
• I’m starting to think if my siblings said it it must be true. they all work part time with rich partners and i Work full time and im spread very thin. I try my best. Not to mention having an autistic son.
• I checked with several different friends. And they think my family are crazy. They say my house looks like a normal family home. My friend even sent me pictures of her house and loo To prove that her house was the same as mine… toys, washing, limescale in loo at points.
• I am now taking it too far. I know I am. Cleaning every day, getting anxious of mess happens, I’m no longer having an evening or doing my limited hobbies because I’m cleaning of tidying or ironing or washing or trying to make fun for my kids or working. I’m scared they will drop in and it Will be messy.

help! I just don’t fit in and I feel like they control my every thought

I haven’t spoken to my mother in over a week and I’m loving it too.. I dread seeing her name come up on my phone and as soon as it does my anxiety reaches fever pitch.
i used to get tat for my birthday too.. I remember she bought me a bracelet that was so cheap it made my wrist green after one wear! There has never been any thought in what she has bought me and it’s always been cheap rubbish that I wouldn’t even consider buying for myself or anyone else for that matter. She’s a terrible Penny pincher..
she didn’t take me anywhere nice for lunch for my 40th.. and yet she wants lunch in London and with the whole family on her birthday somewhere special.. plus some additional surprises.. how she can ask is baffling!
she told me recently that when she was little she went for a sleepover at a friends and was so homesick her mum had to pick her up.. she’s telling me who she put in boarding school at 6 years old and I suffered such savage homesickness that I don’t remember not crying as a child. She’s such a mean horrible person.. she offers nothing to my life.. just drains it.
are you going NC with your mother?

Aww thank you for this.. you are right. I must be more considered in who I share info with because not many people know about my childhood so would think I was the most awful person for ditching a dying woman. Well.. she tells me she is very ill but I’m not sure if that’s part of her manipulation to keep me on side

Just because others don’t have the same experience doesn’t mean yours isn’t valid. That’s why I’ve stopped telling people because it always adds doubt to my conviction. You are the only person who needs to stand firm with your beliefs, everyone else can get lost. Only very select people get to know the real me. They need to be worthy of knowing the real me. Hold your worth high because these people need you
to hold it low, it’s the only power they have. Do things not out of guilt or because others will look down on you but because you are the good person. I visit and help my mum not out of guilt but because I am the better person and no one can tell me otherwise. Do what you want out of love for yourself.

My worry is if we move my children will feel like they are be ripped away from their friends and will hate me for it, and it will play into the wider family’s hands. It’s not like the olden days where you move away and the problem is gone, eventually one day they will be just one click away on social media.
Moving within my own town wouldn’t work, because they have form for stalking me in the past. They would just follow my children home from school to find where we live.

This is fear talking. The way I see it, you can't live in hell in the here and now, exposing your DC to risk because toxic family live here with you and have already made threats to psychologically harm DC, just to try to prevent those same people possibly getting to DC in the future.

DC make new friends, especially if they're just starting secondary school. SM can be monitored by you to an extent. They can be taught to use an nickname or alias like so many do fr SM and to lock down their profile so minimal is public and to be careful with what photos are posted and where they are eg FB profile pic is always public. That info is useful for work etc too so employers don't snoop.

If you stay you've already lost them because you're not interacting with them in a healthy manner, your MH is in tatters and you're on red alert constantly, which will eventually make you physically ill. As time goes on you could get worse, coming across as paranoid and generally batshit to DC, who then won't listen to you or take what you say seriously. So I say if you stay you're playing into their toxic hands.

You sound like a battered wife saying "I can't leave him because I'm scared what he might do", but like a battered wife if you leave you can build a new great life for yourself. Extended family aren't all that important to DC generally. If you live miles away and never see them, there's only a low chance they'll want to embrace a relationship with these people in teen years or adulthood, there'll be no foundation relationship to build on. They'll be busy with their own hobbies and friends and hopefully a top notch version of yourself will have installed a good radar for right versus wrong into them. I'd move far away and not tell anyone where.

Froggerz there's a very easy solution to all that - don't let them come inside, ever! They don't like your home, they don't get to be in it. Who cares what they think of that. Brush them off at the doorstep, shut the door in their faces if you have to! If they're not taking no for an answer. Or don't open it on the first place. You owe them nothing. Not even basic politeness because they're not giving that to you. And when you go on holiday, lock up and go. Nobody needs to look after the house. Change the locks if the snooping bastard has a key. If neighbors have a spare for emergencies ensure they know not to give it to family snoopers. You can't let these toxic people damage your life like this you'll end up ill. it's Monday tomorrow, fresh start, back to you hobbies etc and ease off on the cleaning.

Hi can someone please advice me - If anyone has read bits of my thread…
so I havnt been in contact with my mom for a month or so after what happened. Feeling happy I wanted to continue. My sister rang me saying she was crying she missed me blah blah I said well she never ever apologies. Even though that’s not what I wanted cuz it’s way past that now. Anyway I was at a salon having a treatment when I come down to pay at reception to be told I’ve had a voucher brought for me with a sorry message in it and a bunch of flowers. Followed by another message saying please meet at a pub down the road. I was so embarrassed. Why drop flowers off to a salon I go to for my bloody wax 🤦🏼‍♀️
anyway obviously conflicted I didn’t want to go and see her but me being nice was thinking how could I leave someone stranded in a pub on there own?
so I went for 20 mins. Gave her home truths told her that this meeting doesn’t mean anything. She said sorry. But I know it means Jack shit.
now she has asked me to go with her to her psychologist/therapist on Tuesday so I can talk to her woman about my side of events.
a part of me wants to, after all these years of shit and horribleness I want to put across my side so she can see who my mom really is. But another side of me doesn’t want to get involved? Wants to go back to trying to go NC?
Any help?
sorry I know this may be confusing if you havnt seen my original posts. Xx

ALSO she’s then just text saying do I need anything for the house she’s treating her kids to £100. Well funny that cuz only 1/5 kids is talking to ya 😂

@Tinkerbell678 omg do not go with her to her therapist. This is totally nuts and I wonder if the therapist is actually ok with this.

It's not about versions of events. It's about accountability and making changes to your own behaviour when you see a therapist. I wouldn't get involved with her 'healing'. It would also have to be a therapist who is skilled in handling such situations and i would probably want to meet with the therapist on my own before agreeing to a joined session, which I would never do.

To me this sounds she's desperate and wants to get you back in and this is her latest idea. Also...the salon thing.... be careful... She was overstepping already there and it worked since you felt guilty and went to this pub.

@SamAndAnnie Thank you so much for your reply.
You make so much sense.
I actually had tears in my eyes reading your reply because you are so right.
I feel like I have to sacrifice myself for my children and stay here for their friends, but you are right, it’s a guaranteed way to lose my children. They are like sitting ducks, and this situation is making me a shell of myself. I hide in the shadows. Staying plays into my extended family’s hands.
Thank you for helping me see that.

Thanks for your reply. Apparently she is aware. My other sister the golden one went with her a couple of weeks ago but she would have never said what really happened. I agree it is dodgey territory and I also agree strange behaviour. But I do also want her to listen to the truth 🥴 x

Be careful narcissists never go to therapy for self change, there is nothing wrong with them. Unless the therapist is very well read into narcissism it will be used to make you look crazy or they just want the attention it gets them. They will get you there then the game will turn 180. It’s all a game. Don’t ever think they will change. Narcissism is not treatable.

You don’t need the validation of the therapist for something you already know.

@Tinkerbell678 so the therapist is meeting one adult child of your mother after another? Do you have a way of verifying this? Can you look up the therapist and their qualifications?

I would still never agree to this. Your mother can heal without all this. You don't need to be part of this.

You got your hopes up now that maybe she will finally listen to 'your version' but will she actually hear you? The only person that needs to hear and believe what you have experienced is you. You can give this to yourself and it does not depend on your mother changing in order for you to get that need met.

Can I ask if you have ever been to therapy? Maybe there is a kind of specialised therapist that would do that, but it's generally not how therapy works. It's never about versions of events. Not with narcissists (I don't know if you see your mother as such).

If you are tempted and I can see why you would, I would get my own therapist and work this through with them on your own. Therapy is hugely personal and private and without knowing anything about your mother's therapist I see this request as a red flag.

@Twatalert
yes It seems the case 🥴. She works for the midlands partnership foundation trust at the mental health community hospital where I live.
and no, I know she won’t hear me at all. She only thinks about how it affects her.
yeah I’ve been seeing a private therapist since I was 16… now 27. So a long time.
I do see her as a narc. Especially after the responses to my posts. It’s opened my eyes in a totally different way!

the things my mom has told me in the past about what her therapist says doesn’t give me much hope. But she lies so who knows the truth

@Tinkerbell678 that's good. A decent therapist will encourage and teach your mother to respect your boundaries, and that boundary is NC. They would work to get her to a point at which she can see (she won't, she's a narcissist) that the only attempt to reconcile can happen if you choose to break NC.

Sending a bunch of flowers and a note to your waxing salon and waiting at the pub isn't it. It's suffocating and manipulative. Normal people don't do that. I'm just saying it because we didn't learn 'normal'.

@Twatalert how do you know when/if someone was actively trying to change??

@Tinkerbell678 I don't think you need to know or can be sure. I think it's about changing yourself and your understanding of what's good for you, what you will accept, who you feel safe with, how you want to live and operate etc. Also how you understand how you feel (see the salon incident. some other person would have seen it for what it is, but in you it activated guilt and maybe the hope of having a mother).

I think it's about getting to know you outside of the person you have become because of the abuse. It isn't the real you.

Narcissists are highly unlikely to change so you can be around them. In my opinion this isn't a relationship that can be worked on. Didn't you say you were happy during NC?

@Tinkerbell678 if you recognised how the salon incident made you feel and you didn't have guilt instilled into you as a child you maybe wouldn't have gone to the pub. You might have realised you don't feel okay with it and would not have gone and not have felt responsible for how the other person might feel as a result. You would have gotten angry maybe that your boundaries were violated etc.

Not blaming you or trying to make you feel bad. We were conditioned like that. Just try to show how ones perception and actions might change if we work on ourselves.