August 2024 - But we took you to Stately Homes!

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007.

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwaite
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

@Happyfarm this is exactly right about the gate keepers. Everyone is working to keep them happy, not have them blow up etc.

But these people also always have scapegoats and there is nothing you can do to get your MIL to like you etc. Also because nobody else in the family will want to take your position. They will all work to stay in her good books.

So how do you deal with this? I have no intention of trying to please her in anyway. Just accept that we are on our own and get on with it I suppose. Accept we won’t be invited to anything and let her do whatever it is she needs to do.

@Happyfarm I have recently had a revelation that it's possible to have some shit not get to you as much. Yes, accept it but I think you are hurting very much and sometimes we still ruminate and suffer even though we don't see or hear the assholes. I'm sorry I can't say how it happened. My therapist somehow got me there. It's totally new to me and I can't make sense of it myself.

I’m hurt because it’s the second mother really it’s happened by. It was my ex husband also.
I’ve only recently discovered that I don’t need approval and it’s a very new discovery. It hurts to see the photos of all the family gatherings and holidays we aren’t a part of. But and it’s a big but I don’t want to go to them. But in an ideal world it would be amazing but that’s just a fantasy and not the world I live in. I think I will get there eventually. I have a good life. I need to do something fulfilling to take away this need.

Are my children automatic scapegoats?

How are you seeing all of the photos that are upsetting you?
is it when you visit them? Or social media? Because I think it would help you to stop seeing the photos for a start. If it’s on social media I would hide all of them so you aren’t seeing any of it.

I don't think so, but they will not be viewed as being their own person but served some purpose to your MIL. They will be abused one way or another.

It is on social media. I removed myself from the family chat. I removed some of the members from my FB also but they got in contact with my partner and asked why I did that. I will sometimes look and I don’t want to but I do then I feel awful. I don’t know why I do it to myself. I do feel such an outsider and I make it worse for myself going and looking.

@Happyfarm oh god, I get it. I get the same feeling when I somehow know my relatives have a get together and at the same time i am glad I am not there.

I still have a fantasy around family. I sometimes think they must be quite content, but then I know it's not possible. Even golden children are being abused and they are enmeshed.

But even when I was still in contact and attended these events I never felt part of them. So I don't actually miss out. It's all just a fantasy.

Maybe that is why she has no interest in them when they are young. She has only got really interested in her other grandchildren since then turned about 8. Before that not much at all, now suddenly it’s a massive 180 in attention. Mine are young and of no interest. She even booked holidays and was away for all the births. Mine and the other DILs.

@Happyfarm keep it that way. That your MIL will not develop an interest in them and they don't even get to have some relationship with her. She will start to use them to get to you or something like that.

@Twatalert the last paragraph is exactly it!

I am slowly accepting I can't change their view but it's annoying when they share their views on me with relatives. The relatives then 'look' for the same issues in me when we meet. They give a warped impression of me and others accept it.

I'm trying to 'run my own race' nowadays but it's I credibly hard.

I can't forgive. I can't forget.

I'm trying to do what I'm happy to do now, not what they want me to do or expect me to do.

@Twatalert @Happyfarm I avoid contact now for all family occasions (recent decision). Previously I found I'm ignored until something needs doing or eyeballed to see how I'm interacting. Or my card/gift is ridiculed. Nice! especially when I think I've made an effort.

I see a lot of happy looking families through work and on TV and I do get a pang of wanting to be part of it. It's just not possible with mine.

I'm not NC with them but I am very guarded over what I say. That saddens me that I don't have the bond of a family.

They recently created a family group to chat/exchange photos. I wasn't invited. I have seen some of the posts on a relatives phone (it was purposely shown to me in a 'look what you're missing' way but it all seemed to be filtered photos and bragging that they've done this, are going here or have bought this etc.

It would end up being me being 'publicly' asked or told to do something and there's competitive photos already going on.

I know I'm better off not being in it but it does feel like rejection on a daily basis unless they want something!

Massive lessons learnt.

@Happyfarm @Twatalert

Is this a thing: do your children get 'questioned' for information about you or your own household so they have gossip to share?

They recently created a family group to chat/exchange photos. I wasn't invited. I have seen some of the posts on a relatives phone (it was purposely shown to me in a 'look what you're missing' way

I'd suggest whoever that person is needs removing from your life too because that's FM behaviour

@CherryBlossomTree999 you posted on the old thread, this is the current one xx
My mother was an alcoholic narcissist and despite low contact and living abroad, I was sucked back in when she became unwell and frail. One day I just had enough of the bullshit, put the phone down and never spoke to her again. It wasn't planned, I just knew I couldn't waste another second of my life on her.
The alcoholism adds an extra layer of difficulty, life's too short.

That is exactly what this WhatsApp chat was about. The competition was ridiculous and pathetic. For example we were away and we bought a pack of scones and put together a botched cream tea. My partner sent a picture. The next day the other DIL has made scones and comments how she just can’t stop home baking amazing cakes, home baking is the best. It’s ridiculous it’s just a scone! We move into together and our house is slightly bigger.
2 months later his brother has decided they need a bigger house so they move. We buy a small run down little camper, 3 months later his brother has bought an expensive one. They just have to be better. I know it’s because he is the golden child but it’s very silly. My photos and comments were ignored so one day I just thought sod this and removed myself, I’m glad I did. If they want to talk we are here, we’ve lived here over 2
years and it’s about 15 mins away and they never come. I’m also on WhatsApp separately but they don’t msg because it needs to be a public gloat. The brother and his partner msg on the family chat about 50 times a day and he calls his mum twice a day, he is so enmeshed. He runs all his decisions past her.

My kids are too small. My 2 year old will hide he face from her. Despite when in front of people making a scene she is unsure of her. I think they can sense it. I have no intention of making any effort. If she only wants to bother when they are older then unfortunately she should have made an effort when we really needed some. It has been difficult, especially when she was born. I had major blood loss and my partner was really struggling and did they help, nope, didn’t even ask how I was. I don’t forget.

Long time lurker but I've never posted before.

Question for everyone who's has gone NC with there parent/s, please can I ask how did you do it? Did you have a conversation with them or just go NC?

My mum is an alcoholic narcissist and I've got to the point where I honestly can't bear seeing her or speaking to her again. Nothing has happened so to speak for this to surface but I just want to get rid of that uneasy feeling in the pit of my stomach just waiting for the next unproved attack of what I've not done good enough this time. I just feel I'm done and wondered how others have implemented NC.

@CherryBlossomTree999 you do it the way that's best for you.

I just drifted out of their lives and since they didn't get the hint and I couldn't shake off the guilt I one day sent a message saying that I am no longer interested in speaking and have nothing to say.

@Twatalert I find it so hard to imagine never speaking to one of my babies again. I don’t get how they can be so unbothered, it’s beyond me. My kids are bloody amazing. They have their moments but I could never be so cruel. They have serious issues.

How does a person get so dead inside?

I feel so overwhelmed today - I can’t cope.
I feel trapped.
Living in the same town as our toxic family’s is killing my mental health.
I struggle a lot with going out because I know they could turn up anywhere.
After the flying monkeys came recently, we’ve had several similar incidents since.
I can’t do this anymore.
I can’t even move away because it’s the wrong time for my DC.
It takes my breath away sometimes knowing that this is the way it’s going to be for the rest of my life.
I wish narcissistic abuse was a crime that they could go to prison for.
Theres no escape and I feel like I’m being suffocated slowly.
I feel like they are like vultures waiting to swoop down on my DC. They’ve threatened that they will turn my DC against us when they are older and I feel that threat over my head all of the time.
Im not even sure I want to be here anymore.
I can’t experience anymore loss, pain or having my buttons pushed.
Anybody have any wise words?
I feel like I can’t breathe.

So sorry you feel so low but hang in there. you are in such a horrible position and I understand the mental drain if it hanging over you but just because they say it doesn't make it true. You are a brilliant mum breaking the cycle and they cannot bear that. It is pure evil . BUT they will not turn your kids against you. It is an idle threat.
There are lots of people here who have got your back so keep venting on here. And be v kind to yourself. Take care x

@flapjackfairy Thank you for the reply.
I feel completely overwhelmed. It’s hit me like a massive wave.
I think because everything had been quiet for such a long time, now that they seem to be crawling back out from under their rock again, I can’t cope with it.
I think I had been kidding myself that they were just going to leave us alone, but the latest events prove otherwise.