August 2024 - But we took you to Stately Homes!

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007.

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwaite
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

@Richandstrange Oh yeah, needing them to acknowledge how poorly you were treated and how it all affected you. I can't say it does not bother me that the acknowledgement will never come, but I can say that validating myself and my own experience helped me move away from it all. The less I told myself 'maybe I am exaggerating' or 'maybe I am a difficult person' and the more I understood that I have permission from myself to believe my own reality the less it all bothered me. I cannot say how I got there though. How I stopped telling these things myself all the time or how I started to not believe them. It somehow happened in therapy.

What really, really still bothers me is that in their eyes I am and will forever be the crazy one and that they will keep telling themselves that they have 'no idea' what is wrong with me. It pisses me off no end that they will remain in denial and that this will be their reality forever and ever. A reality in which I will be 'the problem'.

@binkie163 thats exactly the feelings I’m dealing with now. I understand and accept the situation. But now I deal with the fact that I have no supportive family, no one to fall back on or offer me loving words. I get extremely jealous of people that do and I understand that feeling but I hate feeling it. It’s not their fault their mums love them and support them. When I’ve had my babies there was no loving mothers, I’ve no manual to bring them up. I am often afloat just paddling to stay afloat because nothing is automatic.There is no loving grandparent photos or memories. I want it all the time and I’m fed up wanting something I can’t have and having to see it everywhere around me.

Does anyone else feel the jealousy and resentment? I feel like such a bad person sometimes for thinking it about others when it’s not their fault they have good families.

@Happyfarm I feel the jealousy of people with loving, supportive families too. I find the feeling worsens when people who are in that fortunate position start complaining - where they have a great support work, but see their family as a bit if an inconvenience.
My best friend was like that. Her parents gave her everything and were so much support to her and helped her with childcare and everything else, whenever she needed it. But she would grumble because her dad gave her child a pudding, or would be annoyed if her mum had a doctors appointment if it got in the way of something she wanted her to do etc. It used to give me the rage internally.
I hate it when people have great families but don’t appreciate it, because I would do ANYTHING to have even 5 minutes of that.

At the same time the thought of having a great family and really loving your parents almost feels alien to me. When I hear people in situations where they love their parents dearly and want them to live to 100, I can’t quite comprehend that.
This is where my shame lies. I honestly wish mine were dead. I hate myself for thinking it, because it goes against everything I am as a person. But I hate them for ruining my childhood, I hate them for keeping up their nastiness into my adulthood. I hate that my mum chose to be cruel to me. I hate the fact she chose to treat my sibling as her golden child. I hate that my sibling was treated better than me and so is able to have some good memories of the people who abused me.
I hate them. I live in fear of ever seeing them again. That fear makes me wish they were dead. Does anyone relate to any of that?

My DH says the path to recovery is to learn to be indifferent to them. But I hate them and I fear them still in equal measure. I don’t even feel safe being NC, because they always pop up in some way when I least expect it.

@Happyfarm yes I feel the jealousy too. It's very hard to accept and live with the fact that I will never know a mother's love and that other people get to experience it.

I used to be jealous of my ex and his relationship with his sister, but didn't know it then. They both had an incredibly difficult upbringing but they came out together and not divided like so many siblings. They have each other now but no other biological family and their upbringing really was something else to mine. I'm amazed he's alive and coping.

This was all before I saw clearly with my parents, went NC etc. On some level I knew he has something I didn't have: a real and supportive relationship with one family member. I just didn't and couldn't face it at the time.

My brother is 'on the other side'. To me he is lost as well and has been lost since I was maybe 10. I'm on my own through no fault of my own.

I often wonder what will happen should I get taken ill into hospital etc. No family to rally around me.

@BornIntoHell yes I relate to that. I saw a recent photo of my mother and her mother today via third channels and the visceral reaction I had really said it all. I can't look at them.

I just want this 'having to navigate NC' and the worry I will somehow have to face them again somewhere gone. And the answer to that is death. I feel terrible saying it and I worry something bad is going to happen to me just for thinking it (even though I don't believe in that kind of stuff), but I want it all to be over even beyond NC.

I don't want to have to make any more decisions around that. What if my niece asks me to come to her birthday and I will have to say no or face my parents there. Things like that. I want it all to end.

@Twatalert I'm sorry I've tagged you by mistake and can't get rid of it!

@Richandstrange you need to offload to someone so I'd call a helpline, even if it's just something generic like Samaritans, every day if necessary at the moment, you need some support and to be heard. Especially while you're busy supporting others.

I'd also block them so they can't message you again. Change your number if you have to. And if you're thinking they might show up at your door, make a long term plan to move homes. You need to be the one to draw a line under it, they never will. They'll give you time "to cool off from your unreasonable tantrum" then they'll be back. You know it.

Knowing they can't contact you (because you've prevented it) stops the constant circling thoughts at the back of your mind that one day they might reach out with an olive branch - and the corresponding constant disappointment when they don't. If they're blocked everywhere and don't have your number or address, you can truly grieve their loss and move on. You can't do that whilst they flit in and out of your life, causing mayhem every time with their shit stirring.

Regarding the business, I recommend you both sit down and draw up a budget to ensure you're not overspending at the moment with reduced finances. It might help your husband to be taking practical action, moping solves nothing. At least if you know you're not getting into debt, however tight and miserable things feel due to that, it relieves some pressure from you. Every job interview doesn't come with a side order of wondering if you can pay the rent that month if the job application is unsuccessful. You'll probably have to go through the budget several times to cut out those things others and up to now you, have considered essential. Just ask yourself if anyone dies or gets sick if you don't have it. That will show up what's truly an essential and what isn't. There will be an option to make the outgoings match the income, even if it's options you dislike.

I thought when I met my partner now that I might possibly fit into his family. I admit that I went into it will my own preconceived ideas and hopes. I’ve found myself in yet another dysfunctional family. Had I had known I would have ran a mile but now we have children and it’s too late. His mum doesn’t and has never liked me. I think she likes to be in control, both her children are quite infantile emotionally. I didn’t give it enough thought in the beginning but now I’m kind of stuck with a partner who can’t support me emotionally (but he isn’t a bad man) and a mother in law who does her best to ostracise me. I’m stuck all over again in a similar relationship. My own mum wasn’t as openly malicious as my MIL. I have forgiven her for not being what I needed because she was suffering herself. I’m sick to death of having people around me who don’t see me for the worthy person I am. Other people don’t try half as much as I do and they are recognised. I have to say at least I’ve gone past the self blame and realise it’s that I have the wrong people in my life. I’ve wasted a lot of time trying to get the wrong people to see my worth.

I do wonder if we get this focus on difficult people and get stuck trying to get them to see us? We seem to struggle with difficult people instead of just moving on.

@Happyfarm I also married into a dysfunctional family. MIL hates women coming into the family and her daughters are the same with their adult sons’ partners.
They treat the male blood family members badly and live by the mantra that sons are only sons until they have a wife, and therefore all potential wives are instantly hated. We are LC as a result.
Im fed up of the feeling of being surrounded by toxic people too. Sometimes I feel like I must have a flashing neon sign on my head (that I can’t see) that attracts them.

Yes. I grew up trying to get my mother to like or even love me. To listen to me and to accept me. I was working towards 'it happening one day if I only figured out how'. I tried a million different ways.

I repeated the pattern elsewhere many, many times because that's all I knew. I thought that's what you do. I didn't walk away from people when I should have. Even once I realised the dysfunction or elements of it it took YEARS to change much of my view of the world and other people and get to a point at which I trust my gut instinct and walk off if things don't feel right. I still worry though I will walk into something like this again and not see it before it's too late

@Twatalert Yes, it makes wider family events difficult, doesn’t it?
My family did a smear campaign on me at the point of NC so there are family members I don’t see due to their lies. Others that I was in contact with I’ve ended up distancing myself from because they were naturally passing information on about me to my parents and it made things worse. They would hear information and then next thing I would be on the receiving end of horrible messages and harassment. Not because they cared in any way, but because they wanted to ridicule me, or tear me down or pick holes in anything they had heard, or tell me they had it worse etc.

@Twatalert but how do you trust that how you feel is right? I worry that I put my own world onto other people. What happens if I have ruined the relationship with my MIL by basing how how view the situation on wrong feelings. I’m so worried about following through with how I feel incase I’m wrong and I’ve pushed away a relationship. I find it all so confusing that I just want to distance myself to stop the rumination.

Because I have a bad feeling seems like such a weak finding. What happens if I’m the bad part and my thinking is warped now.

I think rather than you are wrong about your MIL, it’s more we are on high alert for toxic behaviour, like a protective mechanism. It might kick-in before someone else might have noticed the toxicity, but I don’t think it makes it wrong IYSWIM.

So perhaps we have the experience and no rose coloured glasses anymore? I can’t overlook behaviour that I probably could have before. For example I will never be asked if I would like a drink and it will always be done in an oooops silly me way. Once is an accident but not continuously. Or she won’t be photographed by me or with me. She ducks out of any photos I try and get with our kids. But she is happily having photos with her other DiL and their kids, even with the DIL sister but never me. People say I’m just too sensitive and over thinking things but it just feels wrong.

Honestly I’m just so sick of having my brain deal with this crap now. I just want happy easy no nonsense you are what you say you are people in my life. This environment is bad for me. Even going no contact takes brain energy because you have to deal with not being part of things you so desperately want. It you stay in contact and ruminate over the behaviour and trying to deal with whatever crazy game play nonsense is going on. I think I want to live in a hole but Id hate that also!

This is quite typical. We ask 'what if we are the problem' and then keep trying and bending over backwards.

I'm starting to understand that my emotions don't lie to me. I get a bad feeling either because something is bad for me or because it reminds me of something from the past that was unpleasant (abuse). Either way it is then my job to get myself to safety (emotionally). It's not necessary to leave only if you are 100pc sure you aren't the problem because this will never happen.

I'm also starting to understand that if someone makes you uncomfortable or does something you don't like...normal people actually talk about it and are accountable. They don't stonewall or give the silent treatment or put you down etc. They don't have you on egg shells and you don't dread them. I know I know. Took me ages to figure out the obvious. It's how I tell apart unsafe people from safe people. Do I feel safe around them?

Then of course you might have a lot of defenses and end up with nobody. Or maybe you end up with nobody because you don't have a safe person in your life currently. I figure it's better to expand the circle through personal transformation rather than letting everyone in and then wonder who the problem is.

@Happyfarm you know that the too sensitive thing says nothing about you but about the person saying, right? Its just a way to get you to ignore your own boundaries. People either say it because they are complicit or because they look in from the outside and don't understand emotional abuse. It's still a red flag thing to say, although some perfectly okay people might also use it.

The thing is that nobody but you gets to decide what you are going to accept etc. but since we have been conditioned to screen for other people's approval their opinions matter a bit too much. They are not facts. They are just opinions by someone who also lives for the first time.

I 100% know that if I said something to his parents then none of the accountability will be on them. He has spoken to them about certain things and they refuse to acknowledge any of it. They don’t think oh no she feels a little on the outside let’s really make an effort to show her how much we value her. They would laugh. I say I don’t know if I think right but really I do know I just get scared to follow through for fear of being completely alone. Deep down I don’t like them and their approval is not something I could get because I’m too me.

@Happyfarm you see. They have you exactly where they need you: confused. That's what abusers do. You are confused and fearful around them. I guess the fear of ending up alone maybe comes from the past. So I would work on addressing this and you might find yourself less fearful and find ways to stand your ground with them and deal with their unpleasant reactions.

These people are often the people in power within families, the gate keepers into the inner family. Their opinions are often the ones sought because we all want to be part of something and we won’t ever be part of they don’t approve.

Your MIL sounds quite similar to mine. I don’t actually think anyone would fail to notice the behaviour you have just described. She sounds like she’s quite obvious.
You aren’t over-sensitive at all. It’s toxic peoples’ favourite term for the people who notice their awful behaviour.

There are others not part of it. His grandparents have been ostracised, the mums dad and step mum because she never liked that he re-married. She blanked them and went fully over to the dad’s family where she has full control basically. They don’t notice anything, or should I say they know that she holds all the keys and most, not all are in the inner circle.

I’ve backed off big time. I make no direct contact anymore because it’s pointless. She arranged family occasions when we are away. She makes it clear I won’t be accepted. I’m sure she knows I know that she is a narcissist woman. I’m sure she couldn’t care less as she has all the power in this family.